Is it immoral to harm yourself?

[Choobus]

z3n

How can you possibly say that you find suicide to be "well, quite frankly stupid.....".
Do you think that people kill themselves for a laugh? The despair that leads to killing yourself completely overrides rational thought.

I hope you never fully understand what I am saying to you.

[Rhinoqulous]

Choobus wrote

z3n

How can you possibly say that you find suicide to be "well, quite frankly stupid.....".
Do you think that people kill themselves for a laugh? The despair that leads to killing yourself completely overrides rational thought.

I hope you never fully understand what I am saying to you.

I agree. I've had a cousin and a close friend commit suicide. Were the decisions they made to kill themselves bad? Yes. But, you can't say they were stupid. A suicidal person usually feels back into a corner; that there is nothing left for them in life, so why bother going on? Labeling a suicide as "stupid" is usually anger re-directed from the self to the other, because a person is angry with themselves for being unable to spot or stop the suicide. And someone killing himself or herself out of despair is much different from euthanasia.

Rhinoq

Okay, well I guess stupid was a poor choice of a word.

Choobus wrote

Do you think that people kill themselves for a laugh? The despair that leads to killing yourself completely overrides rational thought.

I never said that I thought anyone did it for a laugh, but I do know that there are a lot of reasons why people kill themselves. I have heard that some people attempt it for all sorts of reasons. Depression is probably a big one, but some also do it for attention and shock value.

Choobus wrote

I hope you never fully understand what I am saying to you.

Um…why not? Do you understand what you are trying to say to me?

Rhinoqulous wrote

I've had a cousin and a close friend commit suicide….But, you can't say they were stupid.

Sorry, I didn’t mean that a person that commits suicide was stupid just that the act itself could be considered that. People do stupid things all of the time but that doesn’t mean that they are. But I admit that it probably was a poor choice of a word.

Rhinoqulous wrote

And someone killing himself or herself out of despair is much different from euthanasia.

Right. Didn’t I make that clear in my post that I thought that?

So what would someone label the act of suicide as? Is there even a simple label to give it or is it too situationally dependent?

"So are you saying that not only are there no moral absolutes within the whole of humanity that there aren’t necessarily even among individuals?"
Yes.

"Well you would agree that there is moral necessity for the greater good of humanity though right? I mean morals, among other things, are what allow us to keep civilized (though the use of laws) right? I guess it’s the “greater good” idea playing a role but I’m not sure."
I could shrug this off by saying that necessities don't really exist - but I'll put in more effort than that:
Morals are what allow us to live together as societies. Without them, you would have chaos. We are social beings and most of our 'gut-feeling' morality is derived from this. I also think that a lot of 'unsavory' aspects of human nature, such as the willingness to follow an 'alpha male', and the desire (and desire to do whatever it takes) to become such an alpha, also arise from this societal nature.

[psyadam]

I'm assuming the question is "Is it immoral to harm yourself intentionally". Because otherwise the answer would definately be no.

Then the question becomes what is a moral?

If a moral is something that should always be adhered to dogmatically, then all morals are stupid and the question doesn't matter.

If a moral is a general rule like in chess that says "don't move your queen out too early in the opening", then I would say yes. However like all things that are immoral solving the problem can be a very tricky thing to do.

I have often had suicidal thoughts myself, so listen to what I have to say. The reason I have suicidal thoughts often have to do with the fact that I am gay, and because of fears about my future. So in my opinion I think most people who feel suicidal it is not because of a mental disorder like "bipolar" but rather because of problems like the one I have. I knew a kid who killed himself that I was rather sure that he was homosexual but when I talked to their parents after he died and told them that they didn't believe me--however their lesbian daughter who happened to be present said "I told you so".

The point is that I don't think this kid was "bipolar" at all. I think that is just a cop-out so that nobody has to claim responsibility. How many people have to die before we realize this?

[Choobus]

[

Choobus wrote

I hope you never fully understand what I am saying to you.

Um…why not? Do you understand what you are trying to say to me?

I think you know that I am making a distinction between intellectual understanding and the understanding that comes from experience. I do not wish the experience in question upon you, that's all

Oh, okay that makes sense.

For the record I wasn’t making a joke or anything, I really wasn’t quite clear at what you were getting at, but I think that I’m tracking now.

I think that yes it is immoral to harm yourself. But you have to expand on the definition of harm. An example, in the past I cut myself, it lasted about four years, and I wouldn't consider it harm, because the benefits outweighed the "harmfulness" of it. Would eating cake be harmful? No. Smoking harmful? If you don't enjoy it in any way, then yes.

Why not.

valleyshrew wrote

I think that yes it is immoral to harm yourself. But you have to expand on the definition of harm. An example, in the past I cut myself, it lasted about four years, and I wouldn't consider it harm, because the benefits outweighed the "harmfulness" of it. Would eating cake be harmful? No. Smoking harmful? If you don't enjoy it in any way, then yes.

OK, I'll bite, what do you mean by "cutting yourself" and how was it beneficial?

OK, I'll bite, what do you mean by "cutting yourself" and how was it beneficial?

I mean small incisions in arms, chest or legs to allow blood flow.

It felt good.

It's like sex. Sex has many possible negative consequences, but it is pleasurable, so it's not harm.

valleyshrew wrote

It's like sex. Sex has many possible negative consequences, but it is pleasurable, so it's not harm.

But what if you are doing some sexual act that does cause harm, like cheating on a spouse, is it immoral then?

Or what if two adult siblings like having sex and there’s no possibility of pregnancy (she’s barren)? Is that an immoral sexual act?

I believe it is a hard line to argue to say that self harm is immoral. First of all, who gets to decide what hurts who how much? So, cutting yourself is harmful. Well, so is smoking. And eating junk food. in fact too much food in general is harmful. And not getting enough exercise. That's pretty harmful. Are people who don't exercise immoral?

If we begin to say things which hurt ourselves alone should be considered immoral, we cross the line of bodily autonomy. i am aware that others must be considered - i think it's a pretty rotton thing to do to ask a four year old girl to grow up knowing her dad killed himself. But i think it's also pretty rotton to ask the dad, who is in so much excrucating emotional pain and desperation that he wants to kill himself, to live on, and call him immoral for wanting to end his suffering. it's a lose-lose situation, but i dont know when we should cross the line and force people's autonomy away from them, when others are hurt only indirectly by the action (not directly - ie. in this line of moral reasoning, it is immoral if he actually kills the daughter, as this is direct hurt, and crosses the line of her autonomy, etc etc)

I still don't really know, though, it's a hard question to answer.

and valleyshrew - you're going to have a hard time arguing that pleasurable things are, by virtue of this pleasure-giving, moral. If i have pleasure from killing six billion people, the most ecstatic pleasure imaginable (we might need to get monica bellucci to help us in imagining that) does that make it right? I'm interested to see a justification (or monica bellucci.)

z3n wrote

Most people would agree that actions that someone does that harms or possibly harms other people are morally wrong. But what if the action only harms the person doing it? Is it possible that an action is morally wrong solely for the reason that it harms the person undertaking the action? For example, might it be morally wrong to smoke just because it harms the smoker and for no other reason?

How can anything be morally "wrong" when all involved in the act are informed, consenting adults?

baric wrote

How can anything be morally "wrong" when all involved in the act are informed, consenting adults?

So are you saying that if two adult siblings like having sex with each other and there’s no possibility of pregnancy (she’s barren) then it’s not wrong?