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Old 08-21-2008, 10:12 AM   #1591
nkb
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Lily wrote View Post
I have to assume that in real life you are able to walk and chew gum at the same time. It is not apparent here, at all. How do you do this? How do you hear bits and pieces and not the whole? How do you make these idiocies up? How?

Limbo is defined in the Catechism as a place of perfect natural happiness. Eternal separation from the "Big Guy" is, by definition hell. It will be a terrible fate. There is no new improved hell concept. We have just grown mealy-mouthed in discussing it. So, hear this. Fire, brimstone, pitchforks, maybe. Regret, horror, et al. for sure.
OK, so answer my question: Is limbo separate from God?

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."
George Bernard Shaw
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Old 08-21-2008, 10:28 AM   #1592
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OK, so answer my question: Is limbo separate from God?
I know one thing limbo's not separate from: awesome.


Wait just a minute-You expect me to believe-That all this misbehaving-Grew from one enchanted tree? And helpless to fight it-We should all be satisfied-With this magical explanation-For why the living die-And why it's hard to be a decent human being - David Bazan
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Old 08-21-2008, 10:31 AM   #1593
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OK, so answer my question: Is limbo separate from God?
Depends on whom and when you ask. It has always been a hypothesis and never a doctrine of the Church. The following is from the document that "abolished" Limbo:

Finally, when reflecting theologically on the salvation of infants who die without Baptism, the Church respects the hierarchy of truths and therefore begins by clearly reaffirming the primacy of Christ and his grace, which has priority over Adam and sin. Jesus Christ, in his existence for us and in the redemptive power of his sacrifice, died and rose again for all. By his whole life and teaching, he revealed the fatherhood of God and his universal love. While the necessity of Baptism is de fide, the tradition and the documents of the magisterium which have reaffirmed this necessity need to be interpreted. While it is true that the universal salvific will of God is not opposed to the necessity of Baptism, it is also true that infants, for their part, do not place any personal obstacle in the way of redemptive grace. On the other hand, Baptism is administered to infants, who are free from personal sins, not only in order to free them from original sin, but also to insert them into the communion of salvation which is the Church, by means of communion in the death and resurrection of Christ (cf. Rom 6:1-7). Grace is totally free, because it is always a pure gift of God. Damnation, however, is deserved, because it is the consequence of free human choice.[10] The infant who dies with Baptism is saved by the grace of Christ and through the intercession of the Church, even without his or her cooperation. It can be asked whether the infant who dies without Baptism, but for whom the Church in its prayer expresses the desire for salvation, can be deprived of the vision of God even without his or her cooperation.

From The Hope of Salvation for Infants:

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/co...nfants_en.html

Emphasis added for the sake of those who object to my failure to breathe fire and brimstone all over the forum.
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Old 08-21-2008, 11:15 AM   #1594
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Way to not answer my question.

I wasn't asking you what the current understanding is, I'm asking you what limbo was supposed to be, when it was dogmatically taught as the final resting place for unbaptised babies.

You have said yourself that it is a place separate from God. Are you going to accuse me of making that up?

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."
George Bernard Shaw
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Old 08-21-2008, 11:22 AM   #1595
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Way to not answer my question.

I wasn't asking you what the current understanding is, I'm asking you what limbo was supposed to be, when it was dogmatically taught as the final resting place for unbaptised babies.

You have said yourself that it is a place separate from God. Are you going to accuse me of making that up?
Isn't "A place separate from God" in itself problematical? The religion tells us that God is literally everywhere, so where could this place separate from God really be?

That's also a problem with defining hell like that too. Maybe Lily feels that eternal life in a sensory deprivation chamber is more humane than an eternal life in a very hot place?

"It's puzzling that Eden is synonymous with paradise when, if you think about it at all, it's more like a maximum-security prison with twenty-four hour surveillance." -Ann Druyan
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Old 08-21-2008, 11:24 AM   #1596
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Way to not answer my question.

I wasn't asking you what the current understanding is, I'm asking you what limbo was supposed to be, when it was dogmatically taught as the final resting place for unbaptised babies.

You have said yourself that it is a place separate from God. Are you going to accuse me of making that up?
What, are you and Irr twins who were separated at birth? How do you blithely ignore what you have been told repeatedly? It only makes sense on the assumption that you are unable to process the information.

Limbo was never taught dogmatically. I just got through stating, yet again, that it was a hypothesis. It was never defined dogmatically. We have been through this subject before. Search is your friend-- try a search on ... are you ready? ... Limbo, and see what turns up. (Hint: It will be the same questions you asked before and the same answers that I gave you before.)
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Old 08-21-2008, 11:31 AM   #1597
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We have been through this subject before.
We've been through all these subjects before. Occasionally we hear something new from you, like your hatred of Gloria Steinheim, but you've mostly ran out of new material 3000 posts before.

"It's puzzling that Eden is synonymous with paradise when, if you think about it at all, it's more like a maximum-security prison with twenty-four hour surveillance." -Ann Druyan
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Old 08-21-2008, 11:34 AM   #1598
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What, are you and Irr twins who were separated at birth? How do you blithely ignore what you have been told repeatedly? It only makes sense on the assumption that you are unable to process the information.

Limbo was never taught dogmatically. I just got through stating, yet again, that it was a hypothesis. It was never defined dogmatically. We have been through this subject before. Search is your friend-- try a search on ... are you ready? ...Limbo, and see what turns up.

I cannot put in, what God left out. I cannot do it. If this is beyond you intellectually, then, that is the way it is. there is no shame in it. It is just a fact of nature. I am sure you have other gifts.
Will you please stop avoiding answering the question with your fake indignation?

Maybe I am using the "dogmatic" label incorrectly. Was the concept of limbo taught as part of cathechism? Was it specifically taught as a "hypothesis"?

So, back to my original question, which you have managed to avoid: Is limbo separate from God?

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."
George Bernard Shaw
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Old 08-21-2008, 11:40 AM   #1599
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Dammit, nkb. Limbo was just a wild guess, a two-millennia hiccup of mistaken conjecture imposed on grieving Catholic moms, dads, siblings, grandparents, aunts and uncles. I mean, really, they all knew it wasn't dogma and just a lil bit of hypothesizing.

"So many gods, so many creeds! So many paths that wind and wind, when just the art of being kind is all this sad world needs."
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Old 08-21-2008, 11:41 AM   #1600
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Isn't "A place separate from God" in itself problematical? The religion tells us that God is literally everywhere, so where could this place separate from God really be?

That's also a problem with defining hell like that too. Maybe Lily feels that eternal life in a sensory deprivation chamber is more humane than an eternal life in a very hot place?
I have wrestled with this as well. It really doesn't seem possible to be seperated from God who is omnipresent. It really doesn't seem reasonable, but then I've not so sure that you can reason God out by our standards. This is exactly why I'm not sure what exactly the state of absolute seperation from God will be like. If lily doesn't get to heaven then those there will have to deal with her in the other state. I think being burned allive would be possibly better? Actually I'm not sure that there will be literal fire in "hell" but those there will have to put up with a lot of religous people who think that they shouldn't be there. kind of like having to read lilies post forever and never being able to turn them off. Of course this is strictly a religous viewpoint.
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Old 08-21-2008, 11:46 AM   #1601
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Will you please stop avoiding answering the question with your fake indignation?

Maybe I am using the "dogmatic" label incorrectly. Was the concept of limbo taught as part of cathechism? Was it specifically taught as a "hypothesis"?

So, back to my original question, which you have managed to avoid: Is limbo separate from God?
I have not avoided it.

It is not "fake indignation"-- it is genuine frustration over your inability to understand what you have been plainly told.

I have answered this question before. Over and over and over again. Yes, it is separate from God. Yes, it was taught as the best answer that the Church could give, in accordance with the state of its understanding of the matter.

Can I possibly answer this more plainly?
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Old 08-21-2008, 11:50 AM   #1602
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I have wrestled with this as well. It really doesn't seem possible to be seperated from God who is omnipresent. It really doesn't seem reasonable, but then I've not so sure that you can reason God out by our standards.* This is exactly why I'm not sure what exactly the state of absolute seperation from God will be like. If lily doesn't get to heaven then those there will have to deal with her in the other state. I think being burned allive would be possibly better?** Actually I'm not sure that there will be literal fire in "hell" but those there will have to put up with a lot of religous people who think that they shouldn't be there. kind of like having to read lilies post forever and never being able to turn them off. Of course this is strictly a religous viewpoint.***
bolding, mine

*

**Aren't we talking about folks who are already dead?

***

"So many gods, so many creeds! So many paths that wind and wind, when just the art of being kind is all this sad world needs."
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Old 08-21-2008, 11:50 AM   #1603
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Finally, you answer the original question, but avoid the other questions. Meh, par for the Lily course.

So, how can limbo be a happy place, if you are separated from God? If both limbo and hell separate you from God, what makes hell worse?

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."
George Bernard Shaw
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Old 08-21-2008, 11:59 AM   #1604
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Dammit, nkb. Limbo was just a wild guess, a two-millennia hiccup of mistaken conjecture imposed on grieving Catholic moms, dads, siblings, grandparents, aunts and uncles. I mean, really, they all knew it wasn't dogma and just a lil bit of hypothesizing.
George Carlin used to do a bit on LIMBO. "SPECIAL DISPENSATION/HEAVEN, HELL, PURGATORY
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Old 08-21-2008, 12:00 PM   #1605
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Finally, you answer the original question, but avoid the other questions. Meh, par for the Lily course.
What is par for the course is your inability to put 2 + 2 together. Hell is a place of punishment. Limbo was not conceived to be so, except very early in the development of the idea. See, here is how it goes:

1. Hell bad. Place of punishment. Fire, brimstone, lots of pitchforks.

2. Limbo much happier. All possible happiness except the vision of God.

See the difference?
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