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Old 10-27-2008, 03:10 PM   #241
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inkadu wrote View Post
That's why I'm hoping the Watchmen movie will be like the first coming of Christ.
It will be, insofar as they are both fictional.

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Old 10-27-2008, 05:31 PM   #242
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That's like saying my boner is evidence that Liv Tyler really wants me to give her a Cleveland Steamer in an alternate universe.
Why would you want to give Liv Tyler a large piece of restaurant equipment?


"Science and Mother Nature are in a marriage where Science is always surprised to come home and find Mother Nature blowing the neighbor." - Justin's Dad
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Old 10-27-2008, 10:11 PM   #243
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... I take the fundamental dissatisfaction with the way things are as a sign of an in-built knowledge of a restored world - that is beyond our grasp.
A sign? thomastwo, just because you "feel" this way does not make it so. And how are we humans supposed to have actual knowledge of things that are beyond our grasp? Isn't that a contradiction? What you're describing sounds to me like nothing more than yearning or wishful thinking.

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Old 10-28-2008, 12:36 AM   #244
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ya think?

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Old 10-28-2008, 04:47 AM   #245
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Or it could be just in relation to the same life, during times when it doesn't blow. Anyway that's what I'm going on.
Maybe at times the "life blows" concept is related to our other experiences. But, even so, I think there is still a basic human condition where we do not act, live and think in the way that we think we ought. You describe the Christian expression of this as odious, I think it's just self-evident.
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Old 10-28-2008, 04:51 AM   #246
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A sign? thomastwo, just because you "feel" this way does not make it so. And how are we humans supposed to have actual knowledge of things that are beyond our grasp? Isn't that a contradiction? What you're describing sounds to me like nothing more than yearning or wishful thinking.
I think it is a yearning. A yearning that we all experience. Philboid expressed it as "life blows". But a yearning for what ?
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Old 10-28-2008, 05:06 AM   #247
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...we do not act, live and think in the way that we think we ought.
Sounds like we could use a little free will, then.

I will grieve. Grief is not a theistic concept. ~ Sternwallow
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Old 10-28-2008, 06:05 AM   #248
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thomastwo wrote View Post
Maybe at times the "life blows" concept is related to our other experiences. But, even so, I think there is still a basic human condition where we do not act, live and think in the way that we think we ought. You describe the Christian expression of this as odious, I think it's just self-evident.
Poppycock. What I think odious is the Christian notion that all persons are born "sinners" who can be "saved" only by supplicating before your fictional deity. What makes this horseshit more than merely childish is the insulting reminder that the Omnivorous One made a supreme "sacrifice" for your salvation, which you are nevertheless required to beg for from your knees. ("For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son ...") Nothing in this wacky theology explains a thing about the human condition, other than that it affirms that many poor souls just can't cope with their own mortality. I feel sorry for the ignorant who are sucked into this monumental lunacy, and I feel contempt for the educated people who tie themselves in knots trying to justify it.

The term "self-evident" is meaningless. It is just a way of saying you think something is obvious without being able to explain why. (If it were truly self-evident then no explanation would be required).
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Old 10-28-2008, 07:03 AM   #249
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Poppycock. What I think odious is the Christian notion that all persons are born "sinners" who can be "saved" only by supplicating before your fictional deity. What makes this horseshit more than merely childish is the insulting reminder that the Omnivorous One made a supreme "sacrifice" for your salvation, which you are nevertheless required to beg for from your knees. ("For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son ...") Nothing in this wacky theology explains a thing about the human condition, other than that it affirms that many poor souls just can't cope with their own mortality. I feel sorry for the ignorant who are sucked into this monumental lunacy, and I feel contempt for the educated people who tie themselves in knots trying to justify it.
I like and identify with your sense of righteousness and your strong sense of how the world ought to be. I think what you are saying is that you do think that people need to be saved, but that what they need to be saved from is false ideas about the reality of the world in which they find themselves. In some ways we are not so far apart - although we clearly differ about the reality of the world.

Putting to one side for a moment the issue of how Christianity says we can be saved, I wonder if we can agree on any basics about the state of the human condition. I've said over several posts that I think there is a basic human condition regarding how we want to be and act differently than we actually do. I experience in myself and observe in others that this is an innate condition that we are unable to change ourselves. Ghandi says we must be the change we wish to see in the world, but I observe that we can't even be the change we wish to see in ourselves.

I wonder if you agree with any of this, and if you see any solutions to the problem. Or maybe it's just the way it is and we need to put up with it ?
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Old 10-28-2008, 07:08 AM   #250
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I've said over several posts that I think there is a basic human condition regarding how we want to be and act differently than we actually do.
I'm glad you agree that there is no such thing as free will.

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Old 10-28-2008, 07:43 AM   #251
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I like and identify with your sense of righteousness and your strong sense of how the world ought to be. I think what you are saying is that you do think that people need to be saved, but that what they need to be saved from is false ideas about the reality of the world in which they find themselves. In some ways we are not so far apart - although we clearly differ about the reality of the world.

Putting to one side for a moment the issue of how Christianity says we can be saved, I wonder if we can agree on any basics about the state of the human condition. I've said over several posts that I think there is a basic human condition regarding how we want to be and act differently than we actually do. I experience in myself and observe in others that this is an innate condition that we are unable to change ourselves. Ghandi says we must be the change we wish to see in the world, but I observe that we can't even be the change we wish to see in ourselves.

I wonder if you agree with any of this, and if you see any solutions to the problem. Or maybe it's just the way it is and we need to put up with it ?
I don't agree with your core premise: "there is a basic human condition regarding how we want to be and act differently than we actually do."

This is not how I proceed through life, nor do I observe it in others. I can see how people who do feel that they can't quite live up to their own consciences would find solace in Christian theology. Maybe it's condescending of me to find such people sad.

As for our grounds for agreement: I think there may something in that I agree people need to be "saved" from long-obsolete mythologies like Christianity (among others). However, I'm not entirely convinced that the world would be a much better place, even if collective human cathexis were shifted from religion to real-world issues. So, I'm leaning "put up with it," but I'm open to suggestions.
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Old 10-28-2008, 08:57 AM   #252
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I think it is a yearning. A yearning that we all experience. Philboid expressed it as "life blows". But a yearning for what ?
Are you saying that there is a singular and very specific thing that all humans want? Based on what are you making this claim?

Because this is your claim here, perhaps you might want to answer that question. What is this thing for which all humans inherently yearn?

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Old 10-28-2008, 09:04 AM   #253
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I don't agree with your core premise: "there is a basic human condition regarding how we want to be and act differently than we actually do."

This is not how I proceed through life, nor do I observe it in others.
Let me try a couple of arguments to convince you I'm right on this.

First, in almost all societies in all times there has been the concept of morality. Regardless of our differing opinions on relative or absolute morality, I think you'll agree that the purpose of morality is to describe how we ought to behave. Morality makes no sense at all unless there is a difference between how we know we ought to behave and how we actually do behave.

Second, by observation of the world in general I see that people lie, and steal and fight. I see that divorce is caused by people's inability to keep a vow and find a compromise. I see wars fought caused by people's inability to make and keep agreements, and by greed for resources. I don't see any society or people that say that these things are good or how the world ought to be.

And to be clear I apply this argument equally to myself. You say that there is some weakness in people who can't live lives in accordance with their conscience. I agree but I note that I am weak. And weak in a way that I can't change even by my own efforts. Maybe you are different and either you didn't do any of that lying, stealing or cheating that I referred to above, or maybe you don't acknowledge that those are things that you ought not do ?
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Old 10-28-2008, 09:08 AM   #254
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And weak in a way that I can't change even by my own efforts. Maybe you are different and either you didn't do any of that lying, stealing or cheating that I referred to above, or maybe you don't acknowledge that those are things that you ought not do ?
Maybe he has that free will that you seem to be lacking...

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Old 10-28-2008, 09:27 AM   #255
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You seem to be anxious to discuss free-will. I don't really understand your point ? What do you mean by free-will ?
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