Should we fear Islam?

[Ellanoor]

Sternwallow wrote

We may be confusing each other over the term "love" here.
Just how much does one have to love his child to slit its throat and burn the carcass? (re, Abraham J. Sandkicker)

As much as a mother who purchases 5 Happy Meals for their 100 lb 4 year old to suck down with their supersized milkshake?

I don't suppose a teenager in that society would ever think to say to their parents "Mom and Dad, you have brought me up well and have given me the skills and principles to arrange for a mate for my future son(s). I have tested these skills and I have applied the principles. According to your teaching, I have decided to arrange my marriage to that girl who sells melons in the market."

Depends. How good are the girl's melons?

[Ellanoor]

Sternwallow wrote

The very individual mental capacity that brought humanity up to this functioning tribal/communal level must be suppressed to maintain it. That means no progress; no one can be permitted to think of trying something new on a small scale to see if things could be improved. There is a virtual sign hung over the doorway to the chief's hut "Mavericks need not apply".

How does that work, the individual mental capacity bringing humanity to the tribal/communal level? Why wouldn't you start on the tribal/communal level and move on to individualism?

[Sternwallow]

Ellanoor wrote

How does that work, the individual mental capacity bringing humanity to the tribal/communal level? Why wouldn't you start on the tribal/communal level and move on to individualism?

Two reasons: I see the aspects of tribal/communal living as a choke-point for the kinds of innovation we are talking about, and the archaeo-social model I used places individuality in precedence to multi-person interactions of every higher degree.

That is not to ignore the many later intellect/innovation choke-points like the dogma of the Catholic Church.

Just as atomic family units must develop (mentality at work) how to get along with each other, larger groups must also.

What your tribes and the Catholic Church and many other subsets of society fail to recognize or refuse to, is that every behavior that is attached to that social unit was once an outrageous and daring innovation. Tradition makes them seem old-hat, comfortable, somehow important and yet uninteresting.

[Smellyoldgit]

Us cross ponders are having our collective legs smacked over our bigotry, prejudices and social rejection of islam. The most interesting part for me is:

the peer blames "the patronising, superficial way faith is discussed in certain quarters, including the media", for making Britain a less tolerant place for believers.

Are we patronising and superficial in our rejection of superstitious, unsupported drivel that demands special rights and privileges in our society?

[Jimble]

High Five Smelly! We're intolerant of Faith. that nice fuzzy feeling you get when you believe, really really hard, for no good reason.
Now what was the bad thing again?

[Noodle]

I certainly think it's important to have security and intelligence to prevent terrorist attacks on the U.S. but I'm not afraid. It's pretty unlikely that I'll be injured or killed by Muslim terrorists.

I think the laws of some Muslim countries are scary, but I'm not worried about the West being ruled by them. The only thing that would give me pause, is if Muslim immigrants are increasingly ghettoized in Western countries with no opportunities for them. Then you are likely to get extremism in those communities. I have no evidence for this, but I imagine when Muslims move west, get a stable job, and a comfortable house, they modernize real quick and begin disregarding parts of their holy books the same way Christians do.

I think many young men in the Middle East turn to extremism because there is nothing else for them. The West could reduce terrorism by helping to develop countries economically. When people have jobs, houses, and families, they're unlikely to go on suicide missions. And how's the bombing, occupying, and exploiting working out for us?

[Sternwallow]

The 19 hijackers were not poor and downtrodden; some of them had PHDs and were financially comfortable.

As little as I understand Islam, it seems that jehad and martyrdom are licenses to sin all you want then, when the Mullah says "go" you play your get-out-of-Hell card and take the express plane to Heaven. This is similar, in a creepy way, to how Christians can live it up and, at the very end, be all contrite and flush their many sins away.

Each of these plans has a potential flaw though. The Christian may not be conscious to implor forgiveness when he dies and the Muslim may die by accident, not in an effort to defend his Mohammad (MNQB) or his Koran or his cartoons.

Of course both religions forbid suicide (especially "suicide by police" as Jesus practiced). Who, living fast and free, like those 19 party guys, would want to?

A mullah, seeing men in his parish that are well-to-do and living-it-up, would be naturally inclined to send them rather than the pious poor on suicide missions to get them into Heaven.

[Noodle]

Sternwallow wrote

The 19 hijackers were not poor and downtrodden; some of them had PHDs and were financially comfortable.

I stand corrected then.

Like I said, I have no evidence besides my own imagination.

It's the same way I explain to myself the high religiousness in the U.S. compared to Europe. Where there are better social programs when people get sick or lose their jobs, they don't need to cling to magic men that are supposedly looking out for them.

But on the other hand it's only correlation, which is further evidence that I don't know what I'm talking about.

[lostsheep]

I had been thinking as you had, Noodle. But if education, an above average intelligence and also a reasonable level of health, wealth, and well-being is not enough to discourage people from lining up for suicide missions for supernatural glory, then our species is doomed. Maybe a fear of death and the promise of a more glorious afterlife is all it takes. Bummer thought.

[Sternwallow]

lostsheep wrote

Maybe a fear of death and the promise of a more glorious afterlife is all it takes.

That sums up religion in a very tidy bucket.
It even hints at the unscrupulous use of religion for wealth and power.

[Smellyoldgit]

Whether or not you're a fan of Geert Wilders, it should come as good news that the religion of peace will not be immune from criticism in the Netherlands.

A Dutch court has cleared far-right politician Geert Wilders of inciting hatred, with his anti-Islam comments deemed legitimate political debate. The MP faced five counts of inciting hatred among Muslims following his controversial statements attacking Islam, which he compared to Nazism. But the court ruled his comments, while offensive to many Muslims, fell within the bounds of legitimate political debate and cleared him of all charges.

Stand by for riots & a few flag burnings in Karachi, 3. 2. 1. .....