Atheism vs. Agnosticism

Jarferama · 07-21-2010, 11:23 PM

I've only been a member for an hour or so and I've already seen people refer to themselves as agnostics a bunch, and it's irked me a bit, considering I know people who are atheists and people who are theists who would consider themselves agnostics, so I find the term useless, considering it doesn't give me any information about what you think about the question so here is what I have to say about it:

Theism refers to what you believe, gnosticism refers to what you know. If you are a theist you accept the claim a god exists, and therefore believe it, but that doesn't mean you know. If you are an atheist you don't accept the claim that a god exists, and therefore don't believe (however, that does not necessarily mean you accept the claim that no gods exist) There are 2 claims here: 1) A god or gods exist. 2) No gods exist. If you accept claim 1, you're a theist. If you reject both of them, or reject claim 2, you are an atheist because you haven't accepted the claim that a god exists. Most people are agnostic when it comes to these things, as the wouldn't claim to know either way, that's why the question of belief is the only relevant question.

In conclusion
Theism-acceptance of god claims "I believe a god exists." (Positive belief)
Atheism-rejection of god claims
1)Weak atheism- "I don't believe a god exists." (No positive belief)
2)Strong atheism- "I believe no gods exist. (Positive belief)

I hope this clears up confusion to those who would label themselves agnostics, and allow them to maybe reconsider their label.

psychodiva · 07-21-2010, 11:38 PM

hello

I think I've only seen one recent claim to be an agnostic on here- from a new member- but there might be a few in old threads?

VladTheImpaler · 07-22-2010, 02:45 AM

By definition everyone is an agnostic, whether they want to be or not. Strong atheists and fundamentalist theist alike are all agnostics as agnosticism is of the view that claims about the supernatural are unknowable. If they were knowable they would not be supernatural anymore.

As much as a theist might believe he knows that a deity exists, he or she does not truly know.

As much as an atheist might believe he knows that a deity does not exists, he or she does not truly know.

So that means I am agnostic towards every claim towards an afterlife. Period.

Technically I’d say we’re agnostic towards all claims. In fact I can’t truly know I even exist. What does it mean to truly know (knowledge) something anyway?

What does all this mean? It means that agnosticism is fucking useless as a label and as a philosophical position. It doesn’t mean anything of substance; it’s an empty and completely redundant position.

It’s like a fancy philosophical label that highlights that you are stating the obvious. Congratulations, assclown. Ironically I used to define myself as an agnostic atheist until I discovered how much of an asshat I ~~was~~ am for highlighting the obvious.

Professor Chaos · 07-22-2010, 05:05 AM

Jarferama, you are correct. Most of us would say that we're atheists concerning any god(s) that have been defined and described, and agnostics concerning any that haven't.

And psychodiva is right. In that other thread you were responding to a post more than 6 months old.

Jarferama · 07-22-2010, 09:55 AM

Mm, I see, well think its a good thing to clear up regardless, for future visitors or just anyone all the same.

Professor Chaos · 07-22-2010, 10:00 AM

Are you aquained with our Rhinoqulous?

Jarferama · 07-22-2010, 10:06 AM

No, indeed, I am not, though I have only been on here for a day.

Professor Chaos · 07-22-2010, 10:16 AM

I asked because he's a film buff from Fargo that's involved in radio. And you're a film student from Fargo that has a podcast. I thought maybe he referred you.

Jarferama · 07-22-2010, 11:10 AM

Well I know there used to be an atheist-themed radio show on a college radio station that I used to check out when I could, but I was usually working when it was on. I'm not sure if it's on anymore and for some reason I can't for the life of me remember the name, but no he didn't refer me, I found the forum on my own. I don't know how many people in my area are aware of my podcast.

Professor Chaos · 07-22-2010, 12:10 PM

Also, I always assumed he was the only atheist in Fargo.

Jarferama · 07-22-2010, 12:24 PM

Haha well I don't really blame you for assuming that, especially because, last I checked, North Dakota has the lowest percentage of atheists in the entire country. However, I would say that a good chunk of my friends are atheists, and most of those are rational atheists, but not all of them. I think while our parents' generation is almost entirely Catholic and Lutheran in Fargo, more and more of us are adopting skepticism as a better worldview and are becoming atheists. Though there are still a lot of farm boy conservative Christians out here, things are shifting to either really, really liberal Christians (virtually deistic), or just to plain atheism. I'm hoping this trend is occurring throughout the country as well.

Sternwallow · 07-22-2010, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Jarferama wrote

I've only been a member for an hour or so and I've already seen people refer to themselves as agnostics a bunch, and it's irked me a bit, considering I know people who are atheists and people who are theists who would consider themselves agnostics, so I find the term useless, considering it doesn't give me any information about what you think about the question so here is what I have to say about it:

Theism refers to what you believe, gnosticism refers to what you know. If you are a theist you accept the claim a god exists, and therefore believe it, but that doesn't mean you know. If you are an atheist you don't accept the claim that a god exists, and therefore don't believe (however, that does not necessarily mean you accept the claim that no gods exist) There are 2 claims here: 1) A god or gods exist. 2) No gods exist. If you accept claim 1, you're a theist. If you reject both of them, or reject claim 2, you are an atheist because you haven't accepted the claim that a god exists. Most people are agnostic when it comes to these things, as the wouldn't claim to know either way, that's why the question of belief is the only relevant question.

In conclusion
Theism-acceptance of god claims "I believe a god exists." (Positive belief)
Atheism-rejection of god claims
1)Weak atheism- "I don't believe a god exists." (No positive belief)
2)Strong atheism- "I believe no gods exist. (Positive belief)

I hope this clears up confusion to those who would label themselves agnostics, and allow them to maybe reconsider their label.

Not too bad a summary.
You left out the anti-theists and anti-clericals in your panoply.

You did leave out the distinction between various kinds of agnostics.
Some agnostics say that the question of God's existence is unknowable in principle. They may bet their belief on either side of the question but they do so without evidence (knowledge).

Some agnostics consider the answer as possible to know, just not yet, so they postpone making a choice until the evidence and the jury comes in.

Some agnostics simply do not care whether God exists or not and they conduct their lives as if "it just doesn't matter". [v-cookie for reference, hint Bill said it.]

Sternwallow · 07-22-2010, 05:46 PM

Quote:

VladTheImpaler wrote

By definition everyone is an agnostic, whether they want to be or not. Strong atheists and fundamentalist theist alike are all agnostics as agnosticism is of the view that claims about the supernatural are unknowable. If they were knowable they would not be supernatural anymore.

As much as a theist might believe he knows that a deity exists, he or she does not truly know.

As much as an atheist might believe he knows that a deity does not exists, he or she does not truly know.

So that means I am agnostic towards every claim towards an afterlife. Period.

Technically I’d say we’re agnostic towards all claims. In fact I can’t truly know I even exist. What does it mean to truly know (knowledge) something anyway?

What does all this mean? It means that agnosticism is fucking useless as a label and as a philosophical position. It doesn’t mean anything of substance; it’s an empty and completely redundant position.

It’s like a fancy philosophical label that highlights that you are stating the obvious. Congratulations, assclown. Ironically I used to define myself as an agnostic atheist until I discovered how much of an asshat I ~~was~~ am for highlighting the obvious.

Vorloc is a god who can simultaneously exist and not exist. I can show logically that Vorloc cannot exist under that definition.

Similarly, any god who is billed as being both completely just and completely merciful at the same time, cannot exist.

ghoulslime · 07-22-2010, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Jarferama wrote

I've only been a member for an hour or so and I've already seen people refer to themselves as agnostics a bunch, and it's irked me a bit, considering I know people who are atheists and people who are theists who would consider themselves agnostics, so I find the term useless, considering it doesn't give me any information about what you think about the question so here is what I have to say about it:

Theism refers to what you believe, gnosticism refers to what you know. If you are a theist you accept the claim a god exists, and therefore believe it, but that doesn't mean you know. If you are an atheist you don't accept the claim that a god exists, and therefore don't believe (however, that does not necessarily mean you accept the claim that no gods exist) There are 2 claims here: 1) A god or gods exist. 2) No gods exist. If you accept claim 1, you're a theist. If you reject both of them, or reject claim 2, you are an atheist because you haven't accepted the claim that a god exists. Most people are agnostic when it comes to these things, as the wouldn't claim to know either way, that's why the question of belief is the only relevant question.

In conclusion
Theism-acceptance of god claims "I believe a god exists." (Positive belief)
Atheism-rejection of god claims
1)Weak atheism- "I don't believe a god exists." (No positive belief)
2)Strong atheism- "I believe no gods exist. (Positive belief)

I hope this clears up confusion to those who would label themselves agnostics, and allow them to maybe reconsider their label.

Thank the Leprechauns that Their absolute truth negates any requirement to cognate on this philosophical abstraction.

lostsheep · 07-22-2010, 09:12 PM

I am confused about the difference b/w belief and knowledge. We know that the earth is not a flat plane/is spherical...but do we know atoms exist? Of course there is overwhelming evidence that such invisible entities as atoms do exist, and I believe they do exist, but I can't personally KNOW they exist. The evidence leads me to conclude that atoms exist, but I can't say I KNOW it 100%. I am just as certain no gods exist, and that there is no afterlife, but I cannot be 100% sure.

I am thinking that FAITH is what you believe w/o or even in spite of evidence to the contrary...? In that case belief is what you think you know, or feel that there is a very good chance that thing is true, and knowledge is 99% certainty....