Plenty of reason to believe in a higher power

[Sinfidel]

Andrew66 wrote

I don't reach for an impossible argument which asserts an omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent creator for certain exists, nor that such creator is necessarily Jesus

Don't get me wrong, I may have faith that Jesus is God

[Davin]

Andrew66 wrote

Nope, the sentence has meaning - wrong again.

"A god of some kind may exist."

It's a stupid, meaningless sentence. It doesn't explain anything, it doesn't support anything, it doesn't contradict anything... what does the sentence do? How can you use that sentence?

It's utterly devoid of meaning and utility.

Andrew66 may have brain cancer of some kind.

Actually, that would explain a lot.

And of course one sentence isn't in itself a fallacy, you stupid fuck, that's not how fallacies work. It's been a while, you've had time to read up on fallacies. But it seems that you'd rather look like an idiot than spend a few hours figuring out how critical thinking works.

[Sinfidel]

Andrew66 wrote:

"A god of some kind may exist."

What if it's Buddha? Then you're FUCKED! Betrayed, led down the garden path by the Jesus freaks!

And then there's the Russell Teapot God! The Intelligent Toaster God! OMG, how to resolve this dilemma?

[Andrew66]

Sinfidel wrote

Andrew66 wrote:



What if it's Buddha? Then you're FUCKED! Betrayed, led down the garden path by the Jesus freaks!

And then there's the Russell Teapot God! The Intelligent Toaster God! OMG, how to resolve this dilemma?

Hi Sinny

If you read ( you can read I hope?) my thread I am not advocating for a Christian higher power, just a Higher Power. If its Budha then so be it.

[Andrew66]

Just to recap my position here.

1) If the entire cosmos (whatever that is, universe, multiverse etc.) is infinitely large and / or infinitely old - or even just very stinking big (lets say gillions but a finite number of universes) or very stinking old (lets say gillions upon a gillion years old) this adds to likelihood or probability that a "progressive" evolution like process would have yielded a "Higher Power".

I have heard no line of argumentation which refutes this, accept for KA's misapplication of the fact that evolution is not ALWAYS progressive. My argument does not require that evolution is ALWAYS progressive, but only sometimes (even if it is rare). KA fails to appreciate this point, I don't know why (maybe she doesn't read what I have to say, or she just doesn't get it, or she understands but because of partisanship or just being a bitch she just re-asserts a failed position).

2) If the cosmos is relatively small (e.g. just one universe, ours etc.), then this decreases the likelihood of a Higher Power by progressive evolution, however the likelihood of a Higher Power is compensated for the famous "fine tuning argument".

Now I've heard some good argumentation against the fine tuning argument offered, and thank you all for that. But here is my retort.

Firstly I agree at first glance that our universe does not appear to be optimally fine tuned. There is a lot of apparent waste of space, and energy - and why did a Creator go through all the bother to create evolution to bring about human civilization and not just fix them directly and instantaneously?

Here are some possibilities.

Maybe the Higher Power wanted to create a process (such as evolution), which is self directing - so even humans once evolved can continue to grow and hopefully get better. Evolution also yields a self maintaining perfect balance of organisms - one can argue that evolution is a very special and useful system.

Maybe there is a reason for all the extra space in the universe, maybe its not useless. Maybe the whole universe as a system is needed to create the gravity and energy fields required to keep our planet ultimately in orbit for example. Also, the Bible suggests that the cosmos (stars etc.) are useful for guiding travel at night, and also wow such incredible beauty!

I will note as well that the universe is still "fine tuned", if not by the standards put forth "optimally fine tuned".

Lets say (sorry I don't know or care about the exact probability numbers) that the odds of the physical factors for our universe to support organic life, including intelligent life is 1 / Gillion. That is pretty fine tuned, and it suggests that a Creator may have been required to adjust the dials!

Lets say the odds of the physical factors to yield near instant spontaneous development of a perfect human based civilization are 1/ Gillion upon a Gillion upon a Gillion - this is "very very fine tuned" - and it would have even more strongly suggested that a "Creator" may have been required to adjust the dials.

Also efficiency of space and energy have little meaning if a Higher Power has infinite resources.

Nuff said - convince me why I'm wrong.

[Davin]

Andrew66 wrote

Nuff said - convince me why I'm wrong.

You've proven to be too stupid to understand why you're wrong.

[Andrew66]

Davin wrote

You've proven to be too stupid to understand why you're wrong.

Ad hominin attack?

You don't have to prove it to me, prove it to yourself and others by writing down why I'm wrong.

If you say something meaningful that sways me, I'll accept it. Its not a competition for me.

So take the crackpipe out of your mouth, get that heroin needle away from your arm, and get to work.

[Davin]

Andrew66 wrote

Ad hominin attack?

Wrong, dumbass. You really need to learn logic. I mean, this is first chapter shit and you can't even get that right.

[Andrew66]

Davin wrote

Wrong, dumbass. You really need to learn logic. I mean, this is first chapter shit and you can't even get that right.

Another fallacy from Davin, an "appeal to authority"!!

And he thinks I don't understand critical thinking or logic???

Here Davin, heeeer iiisssssssss a weeebbbbb liiiinnnnnnk forrrrr youuuuu tooooooo studdddddy - doooooo youuuuuuu underrrrrrstaaaannnnnddddd?

http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...authority.html

[Davin]

Wow, dumbshit. Let's see how many more fallacies you can be wrong about. Go ahead.

[Andrew66]

Davin wrote

Wow, dumbshit. Let's see how many more fallacies you can be wrong about. Go ahead.

Another ad hominin fallacy! Ha Ha, Davin is a "fallacy factory".

[Davin]

Learn what the fallacy actually is, dumbass.

[Andrew66]

Davin wrote

Learn what the fallacy actually is, dumbass.

Your saying I'm "dumb" therefore I am wrong. That is ad hominen. You also often say because you know critical thinking that your right (argument from authority). That's most of what you bring to the table, useless.

Why do I bother with you - you can fuck off my conversation threads if you like. You are a waste of space.

[Kinich Ahau]

Well it looks like Andy has been doing a bit of reading, I didn't know that the logical fallacies had been published in comic form. The ridiculous thing is that he still manages to get them wrong. What a dolt.

[Davin]

Don't lie Andrew66. I'm not saying you're dumb therefore you're wrong. I'm saying that they are not mutually exclusive states. So you failed yet again.