A Tale of Two Cities: Ash Wednesday - a Southerner in New York

[anthonyjfuchs]

Lily wrote

Ashes are a universal sign of mourning.

Actually they're a universal sign that the fire went out.

Lily wrote

"Remember man that thou art dust and unto dust thou shalt return."

Scientifically true. Human beings and particles of dust are composed from the exact same set of elements, sort of like every word in the English language is composed from the exact same set of letters. And yes, after death, the body will eventually decompose and its molecules will be redistributed through the universe.

What does any of that have to do with religion, theology, or deism?

I thik atheists would be accepted more.... if we stopped flaming theists.... choobus... shame on you, funny none the less but still, come one, we re supposed to be better than these ppl beause we are released from the constraints of jibberish

SuX0rZ wrote

I thik atheists would be accepted more.... if we stopped flaming theists.... choobus... shame on you, funny none the less but still, come one, we re supposed to be better than these ppl beause we are released from the constraints of jibberish

Quite true, in general. But Chooby, who has developed a really insane, albeit virtual passion for me, is a law unto himself, and must be allowed free reign, lest his spirit be crushed. This was mild, compared to some of the adulation he has heaped on me. I am now a scabby troutface which I consider a serious upgrade from "400 pound cornfed something or another" :lol:


Whoneedscience I am aware that Kate was making a joke. But it was in vile taste. Part of becoming an adult is saving that sort of remark for your drunken frathouse buddies. It is usually best to strive for a more elevated tone in public.

[calpurnpiso]

Ash wednesday originated 2063 years ago after the cremation of the Lord and savior, god, hero, Archieros Megistos ( jesus christ for short=head priest) Iulius Caesar!! People were in mourning at the death of this god took ashes from the sacred pyre place them on their heads, and also took burning cinders to light the sacred hearth in their homes.

Over 300 yeas later the Cult of Divus Iulius where his TITLE of head priest (Jesus Christ) was the OBJECT of worship instead of the mortal body of Caesar which had been cremated and FORGOTTEN as a human being, assuming the spiritual form of the comet of 44bc, in heaven, REPLACED all the other religions in the roman empire.. at the instigation of COnstantinus I, Christianity had been born, but it was CEMENTED by Theodosius who ENFORCED it. :)

Philboid Studge wrote

Aw Lily, stick around. We need some thoughtful theists to play with. Salty and ShadowWolf are fine as objects of scorn and derision, but do you really want them defending the faith? I didn't think so!

I never thought of Ash Wednesday as a day of mourning but as a reminder: all things must die. It was a ritual I appreciated long after I stopped believing in god. (You're right: good for atheists and theists alike)

Seriously, cruise the forums a bit and ignore the nastiness if you must. Welcome and stick around!

Thanks. That was a very nice message.

We are both right about Ash Wednesday. Ashes as a symbol of mourning are very ancient and universal. We Christians impose them on Ash Wednesday in a tradition that probably goes back to very early in Christianity when there were public processions of penitents, in sackcloth and ashes.

So the tradition at the start of Lent is to begin with a visible sign of mourning for our sins, which is also why so many of us try, as a form of discipline and to keep Christ's sacrifice in front of us, to "give something up for Lent". In turn, of course, we believe that Easter turns our mourning into joy, signifies forgiveness, new life and all that stuff that so many of you turned away from.

Calpurnpiso! I am aware of your revision of my beloved classical history but I ain't buying it. I won't say I haven't enjoyed it, but I ain't buying it.

Lily wrote

:lol: I actually thought, for just a moment, that you might have something I could sink me teeth into. When will I ever learn??

Well.... that is kinda the whole joke, isn't it? You refuse to.

Lily wrote

Can you possibly believe that there is a single one of us who doesn't know that Christ is a title?

Are you serious? Yes - Many... no MOST Christians think Jesus Christ was his name.... that it's written on a birth certificate somewhere.

Most Importantly - Christians don't seem to care either way.

To Wit:

Lily wrote

Yes, I do know where the Eucharistic elements come from. I am quite sure after reading this post that you don't. This pretty much ensures that you were going to trot out Mithras again, weren't you?

I don't care what the Koran has to say about any subject under the sun.

Myeah - see.... that's why the unaffected think you're all a bunch of nuts. It's one thing to be ignorant and unaware, it's quite another the choose ignorance. With a statement like, "I don't care what the Koran has to say about any subject under the sun." Can you blame us!?!?!?!?

Holy Shi'ite!

Lily wrote

It would save time if you would stipulate, just for the sake of argument, that I have an advanced degree in Medieval Studies with an emphasis on theology/philosophy and literature, which I do. You really don't know as much as I do.

OK - Maybe I don't... but - I do know a lot. So.... prove me wrong - fail to meet my expectations by trying to respond.... tell me why nothing the Koran has to say has any relevance to you when it supports your Bible better than nearly any other reference?

Tell me how you can ignore how interconnected Christianity and Islam are? Tell me why someone who is at least educated enough to know who Mithras was is so compelled by a book with such an amorphous history?

You know what? I'll let you in on a little secret. A lot of people who don't believe in gods, like me, are actually *starving* to understand people like you.

Of course, I can't speak for everyone... but certainly, there are others out there who would love to understand what really drives a person's faith.

Unfortunately, I am usually met with BS when I question them - Christians especially - react poorly to being questioned.

So look - I don't understand you, you don't understand me. How about a deal.... you sincerely answer questions that will require introspection and thought and I'll do the same. All the while, no *intentional* persuasion or disrespect, what do you say to that?

I know - you're probably not interested. What's the point of talking to me if all you gain is human understanding of someone you surely don't understand.

So, Chief of A: That was a great message. Why not start out that way, so that we don't waste time?

Islam, at best, is nothing more than a Christian heresy. I really don't care what the Koran says as a religious document. In its cultural aspects, esp. as they impinge on current events, I do care very much. But that is a different thing.

I will try my best to answer the questions you have. But comboxes are not the best place for real discussions. I can certainly point you to some books, essays, etc. that I have found helpful. But real life is always the best teacher. Do you have no friends who are active Christians? You would probably understand us better by helping out at Habitat for Humanity, volunteering at a soup kitchen ministry, etc. Sometimes just working along side of someone speaks volumes.

Let me start with one thing that I can answer: The Bible is not an amorphous book. It is the best attested book (series of books, really) from the ancient world. If I remember my numbers correctly there are some 5000 partial and whole manuscripts extant from as early as the 1st century and who knows what more might turn up? The earliest surviving manuscript (saved by Christian monks, no less) of Caesar's Gallic Wars dates from the 10th century (AD, of course). Yet, if you dare to doubt its authenticity... woe to you! Hordes of aging Classics professors will descend on you and smite you.

Lily wrote

So, Chief of A: That was a great message. Why not start out that way, so that we don't waste time?

Islam, at best, is nothing more than a Christian heresy. I really don't care what the Koran says as a religious document. In its cultural aspects, esp. as they impinge on current events, I do care very much. But that is a different thing.

So, then it follows that Christianity is Judaic heresy?

Lily wrote

I will try my best to answer the questions you have. But comboxes are not the best place for real discussions. I can certainly point you to some books, essays, etc. that I have found helpful. But real life is always the best teacher. Do you have no friends who are active Christians? You would probably understand us better by helping out at Habitat for Humanity, volunteering at a soup kitchen ministry, etc. Sometimes just working along side of someone speaks volumes.

Why, I do believe you are patronizing me, you saucy minx! (Read back what you wrote to me... why are you still being an asshole?)

Maybe you need to read my message again, I seek to understand the people who subscribe to this - I thought I was clear.

Christians I know are far too fragile to question. I value them too much to question their faiths. I've been down the road too many times. The risk that I would lose my relationship to them is too great.

How will Habitat for Humanity help me understand people who believe in God?

Volunteering at the nursing home where my grandfather eventually succumbed to complications of Alzheimer's - twice every week since 1990 has helped me to better understand a great many things about humanity in general, the value of our greatest generation in particular, and... no doubt... how tempting it must be to reach out for some sort of afterlife, grace, and order when people face their deaths.

But, I've convinced myself that their must be more to it than that. There must be more to your faith than human frailty, right??

Anyway - speaking of Habitat for Humanity makes me think about Jimmy Carter. A man I respect and admire so much.

If granted time to talk to him... there would be so many things I'd love to ask him. I'd be an idiot to waste it on how a man of his intellect can also be a devoted Christian. However, he seems like *just* the person would could illuminate someone like me as to how he can reconcile his prodigious understanding of science, his singular perspective on *history*, and a religion that must present him with incongruence to everything else he knows!

It must take a LOT of effort to maintain.

Lily wrote

Let me start with one thing that I can answer: The Bible is not an amorphous book. It is the best attested book (series of books, really) from the ancient world. If I remember my numbers correctly there are some 5000 partial and whole manuscripts extant from as early as the 1st century and who knows what more might turn up? The earliest surviving manuscript (saved by Christian monks, no less) of Caesar's Gallic Wars dates from the 10th century (AD, of course). Yet, if you dare to doubt its authenticity... woe to you! Hordes of aging Classics professors will descend on you and smite you.

So, you're saying that all the evidence (call it "alternate information" if you like) to the contrary is completely baseless?

By the by - where else is it written that Mary was of virgin birth? Since you were so dismissive of the Qur'an (Koran, Kan-Kan, whatever), does that also mean you don't care what other myths say about "The Queen of Heaven"??

ChiefOfAss wrote

So, then it follows that Christianity is Judaic heresy? Why, I do believe you are patronizing me, you saucy minx!

Patronizing you? Not at all! "Saucy minx?" :lol: That is the biggest compliment I have been paid in ages! Now seriously, I do believe that the Jews do or did consider us heretics. We, of course, see it differently and believe that Jesus extended the invitation to the gentiles, too.

Maybe you need to read my message again, I seek to understand the people who subscribe to this - I thought I was clear.

Sorry, I am not clear. Do you mean to this blog?

How will Habitat for Humanity help me understand people who believe in God?

It won't per se. But I was trying to think of ways far more promising than this forum for you to interact with all sorts of people, many of whom will be Christians of various stripes, in a positive environment where you would get to know them, see what drives them and maybe find some who would be open to talking about the issues you are interested in in more depth.

Volunteering at the nursing home where my Grand Father eventually succumbed to complications of Alzheimer's ... helped me to better understand a great many things about humanity in general, the value of our greatest generation in particular, and... no doubt... how tempting it must be to reach out for some sort of afterlife, grace, and order when people face their deaths.

But, I've convinced myself that their must be more to it than that. There must be more to your faith than human frailty, right??

Yes, indeed!

... However, he (Mr. Carter) seems like *just* the person would could illuminate someone like me as to how he can reconcile his prodigious understanding of science, his singular perspective on *history*, and a religion that must present him with incongruence to everything else he knows!

It must take a LOT of effort to maintain.

I assure you, it does not. On some level, I think you know that already, since you know of one scientifically minded devout person and there are millions more.

So, you're saying that all the evidence (call it "alternate information" if you like) to the contrary is completely baseless?

I am not sure what evidence you are talking about here. When the books of the New Testament were written? Who wrote them? How the canon was formed? Any of these is an interesting subject, among many others we could address.

By the by - where else is it written that Mary was of virgin birth? Since you were so dismissive of the Qur'an (Koran, Kan-Kan, whatever), does that also mean you don't care what other myths say about "The Queen of Heaven"??

I am not sure how to reply to this. Mary's "virgin birth" is not a Christian doctrine. What other myths do you have in mind? I am no Mary expert and will take your word for it that there are other myths out there.

[Eva]

ahh
lily front the front page is here.

goody. we needed to substitute carico.

[Gnosital]

Kate wrote

I asked on of those dirty chicks here yesterday if the ashes were made from cremated aborted fetuses. Her mouth flapped open and shut for a bit like the fish she'll be eating on Friday.

DC: "Are you serious?"
Me: "Yes."

She walked away shaking her head sadly. Like I was the crazy one.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

That's a good one, Kate! You know what, I may try that next time I have to lecture about physiology to a group of college seniors with dirt smudges on their foreheads. It was all I could do, looking out at the lot of them, all smudgy and proud, to keep from laughing my ass off.

I wanted to say, hey, you got a little sumpin, right on your forehead there, you may want to wipe.

And kids that age are usually so self-conscious about their appearance! Sheesh.

Lily, welcome to the forum, or at least to posting on the forum. Sorry if other people are rude. Some of us do appreciate having an intelligent Christian post here and value the opportunity to understand Christians better. But, many of us have met Christians who don't seem to understand the Bible or its implications very well. I'll mention three issues that I'm interested in your response to:

1) Are all non-Christian Japanese people going to Hell? Most people I met while living in Japan were very nice and it doesn't seem right to send them to Hell.

2) As an example of not being familiar with the Bible, in Matthew 19:9, Jesus is very clear about divorce. He says, "I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." Why do Protestants believe divorce is permissable? When I've asked Protestants about this, they usually don't believe me that Jesus said such a thing unless I show them the passage.

3) If you showed me a person being tortured, like is happening right now in many oppressive regimes, and I had the ability to end their suffering with little or no effort, I would definitely do it. Wouldn't this be the right thing to do? If it would be, why doesn't God do it?

These are a few issues that Christians I've asked have not given me satisfactory answers to. I'm not interested in pointless argument, I just want to know what you believe. I suspect that your answers may be more well-thought-out than those of other Christians I've talked to.

Those are really great questions, Gathercole. I will do my best to sketch out some preliminary answers.

1) Are all non-Christian Japanese people going to Hell? Most people I met while living in Japan were very nice and it doesn't seem right to send them to Hell.

I can't speak for the whole Church. Certainly there are those who believe that no one will ultimately be condemned. They are on very thin ice, I think, if they believe those who reject Christ are going to be saved, especially against their wishes. Those who have never heard the Gospel? They will be judged according to the light they have.

2) As an example of not being familiar with the Bible, in Matthew 19:9, Jesus is very clear about divorce. He says, "I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." Why do Protestants believe divorce is permissable? When I've asked Protestants about this, they usually don't believe me that Jesus said such a thing unless I show them the passage.

They must be Methodists. That is a pretty darned hard scripture to miss. The answer is found in that same place, a couple of lines later. Jesus also said that divorce and remarriage had been permitted among the Jews because of their hardness of heart. Hearts haven't softened noticeably over the centuries.

I am not aware that there are any Christian denominations that ever totally prohibited divorce. Divorce is not the problem. Remarriage is. Later, in speaking to the very new Christian communities which were struggling to know what to do when one spouse was a Christian and the other not, Paul talked about letting the non-Christian spouse leave, if he wanted to. He also defined the characteristics of a Christian husband and wife and where one or the other has been woefully wanting, this has made divorce (and subsequent remarriage) possible.

To take the obvious example: no woman has to stay with a man who beats her. He is not acting as a Christian husband must. In such a case, churches have held that the marriage itself could be set aside as invalid and remarriage is then permissable. While Catholics still have a formal annulment process, protestants have shown more willingness to tolerate some very questionable practices in regard to this question.

3) If you showed me a person being tortured, like is happening right now in many oppressive regimes, and I had the ability to end their suffering with little or no effort, I would definitely do it. Wouldn't this be the right thing to do?

Yes, absolutely.

If it would be, why doesn't God do it?

Much better educated, more moral people than I have tried to tackle the problem of evil. They usually write books. I am not going to be able to do much here.

If free will means anything, then God cannot interfere with our use of it, continually. If nothing else, our reaction to evil tells us, or should, something about ourselves and the world we live in. If this world, this life is all we have, and there is no ultimate purpose, then what is the problem? Evil is the way things are and we had just better suck it up. But we can't, can we? The question is: why not?

I have read here many times that atheists don't need a God to have morals. I do not find any of the reasoning persuasive. We have seen too many times, just in our own century, that it is not morality that fills a vacuum but power. And power is not maintained by adherence to the 10 commandments or any other moral code we have had offered to us.

[Kate]

Eva wrote

ahh
lily front the front page is here.

goody. we needed to substitute carico.

Successful chumming gives me a reason to hum all day long :)


Edit: And a joyous coincidence that Choobus called her a troutface! :lol: