Ban The Burka?

posted on another forum I go to

French report calls for burqa ban

by Carole Landry Carole Landry – Tue Jan 26, 10:10 pm ET

PARIS (AFP) – A French parliament report called for a ban on the full Islamic veil, saying Muslim women who wear the burqa or other similar face-covering veils, were posing an "unacceptable" challenge to French values.

After six months of hearings, a panel of 32 lawmakers recommended a ban on the face-covering veil in all schools, hospitals, public transport and government offices, the broadest move yet to restrict Muslim dress in France.

"The wearing of the full veil is a challenge to our republic. This is unacceptable," the report said. "We must condemn this excess."

The commission however stopped short of proposing broad legislation to outlaw the burqa in the streets, in shopping centres and other public venues after raising doubts about the constitutionality of such a move.

"The wearing of the full veil is the tip of the iceberg," said communist lawmaker Andre Gerin, the chair of the commission, who presented the report to the parliament speaker.

"There are scandalous practices hidden behind this veil," said Gerin who vowed to fight the "gurus" he said were seeking to export a radical brand of fundamentalism and sectarianism to France.

Tensions flared at the last minute when a group of right-wing lawmakers pushed unsuccessfully for a tougher measure to ban the burqa in all public venues.

In the end, the commission called on parliament to adopt a resolution stating that the all-encompassing veil was "contrary to the values of the republic" and proclaiming that "all of France is saying 'no' to the full veil".

The National Assembly resolution would pave the way to legislation making it illegal for anyone to appear with their face covered at state-run institutions and in public transport, for reasons of security.

Women who turn up at the post office or any government building wearing the full veil would be denied services such as a work visa, residency papers or French citizenship, the report said.

The opposition Socialists refused to endorse the final report, to protest the government's launching of a debate on national identity, which has exposed French fears about Islam.

Critics of the "burqa debate" have warned that it risks stigmatising France's six million Muslims and describe the wearing of the garment as a marginal phenomenon affecting few women.

But President Nicolas Sarkozy sought Tuesday to reassure France's estimated six million Muslims, saying in a speech at a cemetery for French Muslim soldiers that freedom to practise religion was enshrined in the constitution.

"Our country, which has known not only wars of religion but also fratricidal battles due to state anti-clericalism, cannot let French Muslim citizens be stigmatised," he said at Notre Dame de Lorette cemetery in northern France.

Despite a large Muslim presence, the sight of fully-veiled women is not common in France. Only 1,900 women wear the burqa, according to the interior ministry.

Half of them live in the Paris region and 90 percent are under 40.

Home to Europe's biggest Muslim minority, France is being closely watched at a time of particular unease over Islam, three months after Swiss voters approved a ban on minarets.

Sarkozy set the tone for the debate in June when he declared the burqa "not welcome" in France and described it as a symbol of women's "subservience" that cannot be tolerated in a country that considers itself a human rights leader.

French support for a law banning the full veil is strong: a poll last week showed 57 percent are in favour.

The leader of Sarkozy's right-wing party in parliament, Jean-Francois Cope, has already presented draft legislation that would make it illegal for anyone to cover their faces in public.

The bill is not expected to come up for debate before regional elections in March.

In 2004, France passed a law banning headscarves and any other "conspicuous" religious symbols in state schools after a long-running debate on how far it was willing to go to accommodate Islam in its strictly secular society.

Denmark, the Netherlands and Austria are also studying measures to ban the full veil.

I have freedom of expression problems with banning types of dress. On the other hand, whenever I see a picture of a woman in a Burka I am offended in much the same manner as I would be by a black man wearing a dog collar with a leash. It is offensive on some deep, visceral, level that cringes at people being abused so deeply and regularly that they actually accept, even participate, in their own degregation.

tjakey wrote

I have freedom of expression problems with banning types of dress. On the other hand, whenever I see a picture of a woman in a Burka I am offended in much the same manner as I would be by a black man wearing a dog collar with a leash. It is offensive on some deep, visceral, level that cringes at people being abused so deeply and regularly that they actually accept, even participate, in their own degregation.

this is a post that really has nothing to do with it, in the same thread ,just one of her rants, it's from a lady who lives in Birmingham UK I do believe,.she's a salty old bird and cracks me up


I fucken hate em, you see two women walking around the supermarket like a couple of fucking aliens, with some nasty greasy mouth breather following them about gawking and leering at all the "normal" women, hypocritical cunts.

I work with a lot of asians, over here that means Indian or Pakistani, not chinese... I love the Goans, they are great fun, I love the Seikhs (Punjab) they are always well mannered and helpful, the Sri Lankans are thoughtful and polite, the Pakistani's are a bunch of whiny ill mannered soap dodgers, who think they are entitled to special treatment because they are muslim, bieng the Union Rep, I will not allow them a special room to pray in, why should they get a special fucking room, the Seikhs dont get a temple, the Catholics dont get a confessional, the Pagans dont get a fucking Oak Grove in the goddammed car park, why should these assholes get anything, we have already put in a hole in the ground type toilet to stop these ignorant cunts standing on the fucking toilet seats like a bunch of chimps, I hate em. - Magpyre

[Eva]

it is reasonable for a government to insist that their citizens not hide their identity, for many many reasons.

i bet osama is the tallest burqa wearing arab woman in all of france.

[Smellyoldgit]

[psychodiva]

I was reading one of my old textbooks- as you do lol

"..is it not the supreme and most insidious exercise of power to prevent people, to whatever degree, from having grievances by shaping their perceptions, cognitiions and preferences in such a way that they accept their role in the existing order of things, either because they can see or imagine no alternative to it, or because they see it as natural and unchangeable, or they value it because it is divinely ordained and beneficial? To assume that the absence of grievance equals consensus is simply to rule out the possibility of false or manipulated consensus by definitional fiat." Stephen Lukes ( Power: a Radical View)

I have nothing against people wearing whatever they want. That said, I am all for security- if people have to take off motorcycle helmets in the post office then veils muct also be removed, however, forcing women to not wear what they want to wear is wrong. However again- it has to be their choice.

Currently I do not believe these women CHOOSE to wear the burkha - for the reasons in the quote above- until such time as the choice is truly made then at least make them aware they have a choice - but don't just be another bully and force them into doing something they don't want to do.

[ubs]

We've always had laws about dress. It's just that we're used to them constraining nudity.

I think the problem is with the way the French are approaching it - focusing on one religious group's attire. Is it ok for a Frenchman to walk around with a bag on his head? What about a Catholic woman? What about Halloween - can people hide their identity on costumed Holidays?

[psychodiva]

yes- I don't think they have actually thought it through- well not from the reports I've read- i may be wrong- there may be a complete and thorough thinking-through version of a report somewhere along the line?

[lostsheep]

Are klan members allowed to wear sheets over their heads in public? I think not!

Though in all honesty, banning the burka completely will just increase it's popularity. Human nature is perverse like that. I think banning in certain settings would be a good move.

[Choobus]

ubs wrote

Is it ok for a Frenchman to walk around with a bag on his head?

In the case of Gérard Depardieu, I would have to say yes.

[psychodiva]

if he can find a bag big enough

[psychodiva]

Fuel for the debate

Denmark's take on it

Hizb-ut-Tahrir's take on it (as far as i understand this is a Wahabi organisation)

What some women go through in relation to not wearing it

and another view

[Eva]

i don't mind the scarves, or the tent dress but the face, for security and identification needs to be uncovered! i think this is basic, specially in countries were women are actually people and have rights under the law.

The term "Secular Fundamentalism" coined by fundamentalist Muslims. I think the whole world is on a bad acid trip.

[dogpet]

What about this then ubs? Link.