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Old 06-02-2007, 10:07 AM   #211
Sternwallow
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Lily wrote
I still drop in because I am constitutionally unable to allow so much garbage to go unrebuked, particularly when I know that the people spewing it are smart enough to learn. Whether they are honest enough too[sic], particularly in this environment, is a question that I think has been answered, negatively, here in this particular thread.
It might be more useful if your rebukes were substantial and not oblique references to your vast historical background. You state unfounded opinion and, when called on it, retreat to referencing a Catholic Encyclopedia. It is actually a bit surprising that you volunteer, in this way, to be tarred with the same silly brush that applies to the RC dogma.

"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
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Old 06-02-2007, 10:17 AM   #212
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I'll say what I said again, that we have parts of our brain that act this way is not the least bit surprising, but rather expected. I'd actually be surprised if this wasn't the case.

And all the research says is that the brain is wired to take pleasure in such acts. How that damages the case for free will is utterly lost on me.
If a behavior that was previously believed to be governed by free will can be shown to be a mechanism, like an alarm clock, the case for free will in that particular area is heavily damaged.

If the next fMRI shows the part of some people's brain that creates devotion to Jesus, that would damage both free will and Christianity. We have already found the brain section that, when impared, causes feelings of "oneness with the universe" and we can stimulate the brain part that manufactures a feeling of religious bliss. We can confidently expect more cards of the house to fall.

"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
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Old 06-02-2007, 10:22 AM   #213
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Lily wrote
Isn't this the "But mom! All the other kids do it" excuse? It is obviously possible that no actual honest discussion is wanted here. But at least recognize that fact and own up to it
I would love nothing more than to have honest discussion between us. Unfortunately, I think we have different criteria for what constitutes such. I'm not being sarcastic; I am sincere.
You are welcome to email me. No serious discussion here would be permitted to go forward and I would love to be able to talk to you as though we were real people.
Careful, Irrelig, I tried that a while back, but Lily called me a bad name [sniffl] so, according to her own philosophy, I had to quit. Now I can only point out her strange irrationalities on the forum.

Edit typo

"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
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Old 06-02-2007, 10:25 AM   #214
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Just Us Chickens wrote
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Irr, are they like souvenirs or something? I have a mannequin head at home but I use it as a hat rack not for healing. Perhaps Iíve been underutilizing it this whole time.
What kind of souvenir is a severed mannequin limb? What's it got to do with anything?
I try not to question mannequin limbs I have a few in my house and though I make use of them as hat and jewelry racks Iím not really sure why they are there. I thought perhaps this might be the same sort of thing.

What is it called when they keep holy bones?
Stupid primitive relics.

"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
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Old 06-02-2007, 10:29 AM   #215
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ossuary, irr...?
That is one place where they keep anyone's bones. Actual relics (bones and other things of saints) are kept in imaginatively named reliquaries.

"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
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Old 06-02-2007, 10:32 AM   #216
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When lilly first deigned to grace us with his/her/their presence, I ignored the posts. I don't care to mix it up with theists because I'm not interested in discussing the merits of various fictional accounts of an ancient comic book superhero. But there I was, minding my own when out of the blue your innocent little buddy posts this as his first ever post directed to me personally:

http://ravingatheists.com/forum/view...d=99498#p99498

OK, you say, what's so bad about that? Well, if it had been posted to you, you might have felt that your integrity and intelligence and ethics were being disparaged. And maybe being a person of such high moral character, you would have come back with something like "oh well yes, I suppose I am a bad person and don't have a right to say what I think as an atheist on an open forum for atheists. Gee, you're so right lilly, can I be your best pal and agree with whatever you say???" I, however, did not feel so inclined.

Your xian pal lilly enjoys being nasty. This is a place where he can indulge in his natural snarky crapulence without having to confess it in the closet with the priest on sunday, in fact, being nasty to people here gives him a little woody from feeling so much holier than we.
I should never say never because that is one of the many things I am always wrong about. So, perhaps you will not be surprised that I want to respond to this. I have never understood the peculiar venom with which you have tried to insult me; it always seemed inexplicably over-the-top. Now that I understand (or think I do), I will offer you an apology and a few words of explanation. They are yours to mock or ignore, as you please.

I loved teaching (I am an administrator now and rarely in a classroom) from the first day I stood in front of a class as a TA with knees shaking from stage fright. I suppose, as my subject was part of the required core curriculum, that I must, literally, have had a thousand students pass through my life during my teaching years. Most of them were average or a little above. Some were brilliant. A few were ... not. I even had a couple of quite mentally ill and a con man (or two).

Yet, I realized from almost the beginning that as a teacher, it was in my power to hurt them or encourage them. I could (in a small way) help them on their way to achieving their goals or help them shape new ones. It was/is awe inspiring and, at the same time, a grave responsibility. I could never see people in quite the same way, after becoming a teacher. Each person is precious, has a history, hopes, dreams, sorrows, etc. That recognition was, I believe, the decisive turning point in my conversion-- but, I digress.

I do admit that being new to the forum world, I took far too seriously the huffing and puffing and the sometimes monumental blowharding (if you will permit me to coin a verb) that goes on. I was horrified by what you wrote. However, if you had responded that you were blowing off steam and to lighten up, I would have been so happy because that I would have understood. Or so I think. I do know that I was genuinely repelled by the level of "discourse" that was the standard among people who are mostly educated adults. It still baffles me though it no longer has the power to shock me. I am not sure that is a good thing. But once innocence is lost, it stays lost.

It is funny that you think I am nasty, venting vitriol (Rat's words), etc. I am not, I don't think. I am certainly tactless, which is bad enough. But too many of you equate being disagreed with with "nastiness". That is something I cannot understand. Steve took the high road by biting his tongue. I took the low road by refusing to accept it. C'est la vie.

I am, however, genuinely sorry that you felt that your integrity and intelligence and ethics were being disparaged. I was asking a real question, however tactless. I thought I was asking if teaching was your thing, since I had never seen you express satisfaction with your students. I still haven't to this day. But, I assure you that I never equated your possible dislike of teaching with a lack of intelligence, ethics or integrity.
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Old 06-02-2007, 10:37 AM   #217
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Philboid Studge wrote
I think you are misrepresenting him -- at least re his original post -- because he's NOT saying that because "humans actually get pleasure from doing good" it will scare theologians. He is saying (I think) that humans don't actually "choose" to be good, therefore free will is for suckers. I don't know how to further explain the implications of a wired -- programmed? -- brain damaging the case for free willy; I think you know exactly how it would, if true, though.

You should probably take it up with Mog ...
Its also the fact that not everyone has their brains (Psychopaths) wired this way. Not only are they not altruistic, but they feel no negative feelings for the evil that they do. They have as much chance to get to heaven as a camel has of going through an eye of the needle, and its not entirely their fault because they were created this way at birth. I could be wrong, but is Christianity based on the premise that everyone has a fair chance to get to heaven or not?
When it is said that God knew which would go to Heaven and which to Hell at the beginning of things, it is clear that no one has a fair shot to get to Heaven. Your dice have been rolled and somebody else rolled them long before you were born. Tough luck, but it is the just and loving way.

"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
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Old 06-02-2007, 10:51 AM   #218
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Its also the fact that not everyone has their brains (Psychopaths) wired this way. Not only are they not altruistic, but they feel no negative feelings for the evil that they do. They have as much chance to get to heaven as a camel has of going through an eye of the needle, and its not entirely their fault because they were created this way at birth. I could be wrong, but is Christianity based on the premise that everyone has a fair chance to get to heaven or not?
Everyone does have a fair chance, although that is not the ideal way to put it, I don't suppose. If one's psyche is so damaged that it is not possible for one to recognize right and wrong, there can be no culpability. You (all) seem to have a notion of God that makes him little more than an ill-tempered curmudgeon of limited imagination and intelligence. Think big. Very big. Better, smarter, wiser, more compassionate, more attune to the complexities of the human condition than even, even... Richard Dawkins!
Richard Dawkins is unlikely to create a lethal temptation and leave an ignorant child (created by him with a deliberately inadequate ability to resist such temptation) near it and expect (though he knew absolutely better) that a cryptic command would enable the child to avoid falling for that temptation. When the child disobeyed, Richard would take the child's condition and capability into account and assign no culpability. God did not. Those two kids had no more ability to choose than a dropped rock can choose to fall up.

"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
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Old 06-02-2007, 11:01 AM   #219
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I again wonder why, then, God is so specifically described:

"Rev. 1:
[13] And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
[14] His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
[15] And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters."

This is somewhat contrary to the earlier claims that no one can see God or hear his full voice and live. It is also contrary to concocted notions that God is invisible.
This is why I simply cannot be bothered to try to engage you in any sort of coversation. It would be hard to top this for sheer dishonesty. And dishonesty it must be, since you have to know that this particular book describes a vision that John says he had. How can one have vision (or a dream, which the author states the book might be describing), if one does not actually "see" something?

Do we think God looks like a burning bush because that is the concrete form God took on to reveal himself to Moses?

If you aren't simply having fun blowharding here, I will express my very deep regret that you were born with no imagination. Your life will have been seriously impoverished, if that is the case.
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Old 06-02-2007, 11:05 AM   #220
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Lily wrote
I still drop in because I am constitutionally unable to allow so much garbage to go unrebuked, particularly when I know that the people spewing it are smart enough to learn. Whether they are honest enough too[sic], particularly in this environment, is a question that I think has been answered, negatively, here in this particular thread.
It might be more useful if your rebukes were substantial and not oblique references to your vast historical background. You state unfounded opinion and, when called on it, retreat to referencing a Catholic Encyclopedia. It is actually a bit surprising that you volunteer, in this way, to be tarred with the same silly brush that applies to the RC dogma.
You plain don't listen. I am not retired. I don't have the time to write lengthy essays (which will be ignored anyway) in a comment box. It is a waste of time under the best of circumstances, if someone else has already answered the question much better than I can and I can point you to it.
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Old 06-02-2007, 11:07 AM   #221
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Lily wrote
This is why I simply cannot be bothered to try to engage you in any sort of coversation.
There seems to be little else reason to visit a web forum full of people with dissenting views. Maybe you should rethink your time-allocation protocols.

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Lily wrote
It would be hard to top this for sheer dishonesty.
Let me try. "There is an invisible man made of love in the sky". Oh snap.

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Lily wrote
And dishonesty it must be, since you have to know that this particular book describes a vision that John says he had. How can one have vision (or a dream, which the author states the book might be describing), if one does not actually "see" something?
Of course, one cannot see something if there is nothing to be seen. When one hallucinates they are not 'seeing' something, their brain's are misfiring and creating images themselves. Indeed, the neural structure involved in 'seeing' need not be involved in a 'vision' up until the secondary visual cortex.

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Lily wrote
Do we think God looks like a burning bush because that is the concrete form God took on to reveal himself to Moses?
I don't know, I try not to assume about the beliefs of people who mentally ruminate for brownie points from an invisible father-figure.

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Lily wrote
If you aren't simply having fun blowharding here
Lily finger-wagging over being a blow-hard. Oh the ironing.

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Old 06-02-2007, 11:11 AM   #222
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Lily wrote
I do know that I was genuinely repelled by the level of "discourse" that was the standard among people who are mostly educated adults. It still baffles me though it no longer has the power to shock me. I am not sure that is a good thing. But once innocence is lost, it stays lost.
As you are admittedly past 40, I would hope that you had lost your innocence to the ways of the world a long time ago, Lily.

However, I do empathsize with you in wanting to keep my own personal discourse on a higher plain (most of the time). It's not because my sensibilities are so delicate that I would be mentally injured by the cuss words tossed about so freely here. No, my fear is that if I were half as clever as somebody like Choobus, I'd wield a far deadlier sword. Since I am not, I'd only come off looking like a complete jerk if I ventured with abandon to his territory. Anyway, I understand anger all too well, Lily (how can a black, gay atheist man not?). I see a "kindred spirit" in you. It is, perhaps, the main thing I like about you. All the superficially pleasant phraseology you might employ cannot mask the latent hostility in many of your posts. Ironically, it's the pseudo civility that makes it tolerable. For me, anyway.

"So many gods, so many creeds! So many paths that wind and wind, when just the art of being kind is all this sad world needs."
--Ella Wheeler Wilcox
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Old 06-02-2007, 11:12 AM   #223
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Thanks for those additional finds, RenaissanceMan! It has been about a decade since I saw those wax body parts in Fatima. I remember seeing arms, legs and feet suspended from the ceiling of one of those kiosks. And, as I said earlier, they were "life-size," but that could be faulty memory on my part.

So the superstitious burn these wax body parts in hopes for a cure for whatever ails them? Sort of an appeasement to their god. I wonder if this practice is endorsed by the Vatican?
It is endorsed by the Voodooican.
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And nkb, Fatima was not nearly as beautiful as Guadalupe, so your inlaws would be wasting their time there. The actual shrine at Fatima is nothing more than a fancy bus shelter, in my opinion.

"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
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Old 06-02-2007, 11:14 AM   #224
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I bet he has some of those iron chariots!
:lol::lol:

God must REALLY hate iron fags.

"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
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Old 06-02-2007, 11:15 AM   #225
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I have often wondered, Victus, why it is that you use my messages, or those of others, as a pretext for bowharding about something else entirely. Does not the fact that I put "see" in quotes, suggest to you that I am talking about the brain creating images?

And this is, soberly speaking, hilarious: I don't know, I try not to assume about the beliefs of people who mentally ruminate for brownie points from an invisible father-figure. This is exactly what you do and give us theists more than our share of belly-laughs.
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