Scientists, Please Read - Page 2

Victus · 05-14-2006, 07:16 PM

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Down21 wrote

Im just wondering how good a model for instrumental aggression is this computer game? Im sure you could get a few false positives, since it is a lot easier to virtually mug somebody. Are you allowed ask for histories of aggressive behaviour/ criminal conviction etc. and then correlate that with your top 10% ers?

There are a few problems with this...

1) Most university students aren't going to have a criminal record, aside from underage drinking and the like, certainly almost none would have violent offenses on their records (compared to the forensic samples where almost all of them have violent records).

2) Even if the sample did contain a bizare amount of previous offenders, it would almost be the same as measuring the forensic samples, where instrumental aggression in psychopaths is established.

3) It's quite likely that at least some bottom 10% PPI scoring participants will commit instrumental aggression (if we're to agree that this tests that behavior). However on the whole, they should show much less of it than those in the top 10% of the PPI factors being measured.

So far I'm considering making 'level of necesity' a variable, where in one group is told that they must finish 1st in order to receive the reward and the other is not.

Gnosital · 05-14-2006, 09:51 PM

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Kate wrote

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Ten wrote

Gentle, Scatty. [

Naw! C'mon! Sic her!

Nah, I'm just not in the mood today, K! Besides, it's not nice to beat up on midgets.

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Victus wrote

PS: Thanks for routing anon's post. I couldn't be bothered for sheer idiocy and illiteracy. Excellent critique and questioning.

Thanks Victus.

Good luck on your study! It will be interesting (if not also very disturbing) to see if your population yields enough of a difference in the psychopathy scores to affect the dependent variable. You should definitely let us know when it's published!

05-15-2006, 12:19 AM

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Victus wrote

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Down21 wrote

Im just wondering how good a model for instrumental aggression is this computer game? Im sure you could get a few false positives, since it is a lot easier to virtually mug somebody. Are you allowed ask for histories of aggressive behaviour/ criminal conviction etc. and then correlate that with your top 10% ers?

There are a few problems with this...

1) Most university students aren't going to have a criminal record, aside from underage drinking and the like, certainly almost none would have violent offenses on their records (compared to the forensic samples where almost all of them have violent records).

2) Even if the sample did contain a bizare amount of previous offenders, it would almost be the same as measuring the forensic samples, where instrumental aggression in psychopaths is established.

3) It's quite likely that at least some bottom 10% PPI scoring participants will commit instrumental aggression (if we're to agree that this tests that behavior). However on the whole, they should show much less of it than those in the top 10% of the PPI factors being measured.

So far I'm considering making 'level of necesity' a variable, where in one group is told that they must finish 1st in order to receive the reward and the other is not.

So the results will be skewed towards the aggressive side in all cases compared to real life since in reality most of these people do not regularly commit instrumental aggression. Can you think of any other factors besides (aggression) than could skew the results further for certain individuals? Like regular computer gaming or gambling?

05-15-2006, 06:55 AM

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Kate wrote

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Victus wrote

First off I'd like to describe the gist of the experiment (still a gleem in my eye), and then ask for any interesting research on instrumental aggression that anyone has encountered, in the event that I've missed something.

I once had a piano lid slam down on my hands. It fucking hurt. Is there a format you're using to document these encounters?

The question is--did you do it on purpose--and did you repeat it?

Victus · 05-15-2006, 07:13 AM

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Down21 wrote

So the results will be skewed towards the aggressive side in all cases compared to real life since in reality most of these people do not regularly commit instrumental aggression. Can you think of any other factors besides (aggression) than could skew the results further for certain individuals? Like regular computer gaming or gambling?

Those kinds of variables would be impossible to control for, unless we want to eliminate like 60% of our participants. That's where random dampling comes in, all the random BS smooths out.

Kate · 05-15-2006, 07:15 AM

It was my brother who did it, and he did not repeat it as I proceeded to beat the holy shit out of him.

Come to think of it, he'd be a good candidate for this study.......

05-15-2006, 10:36 AM

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Victus wrote

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Down21 wrote

So the results will be skewed towards the aggressive side in all cases compared to real life since in reality most of these people do not regularly commit instrumental aggression. Can you think of any other factors besides (aggression) than could skew the results further for certain individuals? Like regular computer gaming or gambling?

Those kinds of variables would be impossible to control for, unless we want to eliminate like 60% of our participants. That's where random dampling comes in, all the random BS smooths out.

Surely you can ask people if they have experience in "virtual aggression" like in Grand theft auto or something. A yes answer may indicate some level of desensitisation to virtual aggression (as in your experiment) without ever influencing the individuals real aggression outside the lab. Either way, any corelation would be interesting and no corelation would mean that kind of thing can be ruled out.

Do you have access to a truly random sample? I mean not confined to university students. Studies have shown how low parental education level, conduct problems, and hyperactivity in middle childhood predict criminal offenses in later life. University students are less likely than your average banana to have had these disadvantages so do not reflect the general public. Or you could compare university educated students to non university- educated people of the same age?

I do not pity psychologists when it comes to controlling for variables. Best of luck

Victus · 05-15-2006, 11:08 AM

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Down21 wrote

Surely you can ask people if they have experience in "virtual aggression" like in Grand theft auto or something. A yes answer may indicate some level of desensitisation to virtual aggression (as in your experiment) without ever influencing the individuals real aggression outside the lab. Either way, any corelation would be interesting and no corelation would mean that kind of thing can be ruled out.

It would be nearly impossible to gage the type of aggression they show in the games (instrumental or reactive), over their entire lifespan. Furthermore, levels of severityof aggression in previous gaming experiences would be hard to code, and most often not be against another human player (as in this study where they will be under the impression that they are playing against humans in other rooms). The best we could hope to do is to ask "do you play videogames that are violent?", which would give us almost no information. Good idea though.

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Down21 wrote

Do you have access to a truly random sample? I mean not confined to university students. Studies have shown how low parental education level, conduct problems, and hyperactivity in middle childhood predict criminal offenses in later life. University students are less likely than your average banana to have had these disadvantages so do not reflect the general public. Or you could compare university educated students to non university- educated people of the same age?

No sample can be truly random, but we aren't allowed to rome the streets with nets, nabbing up participants (damn you ethics board!). So the best we can do without expending rediculous resources and time is to open it up to anyone, and advertise around the campus.

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Down21 wrote

I do not pity psychologists when it comes to controlling for variables. Best of luck

Indeed, lab rats are where its at. The are bred specific, live in boxes, have specific day/night times, etc. Most of our participants have ~20 years of undocumented lifetime that would take rediculous resources to account for.

05-15-2006, 01:00 PM

Hi Victus,

Thanks for your replies. I have trouble getting my head around psychological experiments....I was put off psychology as an undergrad. The neuroscience class had to do a compulsory course in "cultural psychology". I was told in this class that us scientists couldnt hold our "theories" any higher than his cultural relativism bullshit. We complained so much the module was stricken from the degree. Since then I display caution when it comes to interpreting the results of psychological experiments.

You will have to sort that ethics board out. All you need for that random sample is a giant quadrat and a busy street....either that or a stereological method called the "optical fractionator"...but they probably dont let you cut them up either...bastards

Victus · 05-15-2006, 04:03 PM

Yeah, you always have to take psychological experiments with a grain of salt. It possible to make a totally invalid experiment, but still have results that seem plausible (but aren't in reality). There are so many variables that you have to account for that it's rediculous. You're left casting a net and saying "I hope I don't get a set of participants who are freakishly deviant from the general population".

Standard double blind procedures keep things clean on the experimental side, as well as verified procedures (is what we're measuring really what we say we're measuring?).

calpurnpiso · 05-15-2006, 04:25 PM

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anon wrote

Moderators,

There is OR appears to be some misplaced grasp of psychosis and bipolar disorder and I reproduce the following for your consideration. http://www.skipsimpson.com/article.html http://www.judicial.state.sc.us/opin...fm?caseNo=3420

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anon wrote

3) where bi-polar disorders have psychosis, then the person with bi-polar disorder, as per your cited case of ‘adult bi-polar disorder’, the person would also be a psychotic.

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scathach wrote

??????

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http://www.skipsimpson.com/article.html wrote

tipsychotic for any reason other than the treatment of psychosis (that is, of hallucinations or delusions), the provider was likely negligent. Unfortunately, some psychiatrists still prescribe antipsychotics for anxiety. This is clearly inappropriate. Second, if a psychiatrist places the patient on an antipsychotic for a period of time longer than clinically necessary, this is negligent. For example, a bipolar patient is sometimes (appropriately) placed on an antipsychotic during the manic phase of the illness, but then the antipsychotic is never discontinued after the manic phase ends. Finally, if the clinician unreasonably fails to detect the onset of TD, or fails to take steps to reverse it, he or she will be negligent

Finally, attorneys handling mental health malpractice cases often encounter patients suffering from bipolar disorder, formerly known as manicdepressive illness. As the name suggests, bipolar patients suffer from extreme mood swings. Typically, the patient will enter either a manic or depressed phase, each of which can last for months. The patient will then return Lo baseline functioning, before entering a new episode. During their manic phase, patients engage in reckless behavior (gambling or spending excessively, or engaging in impetuous sexual

behavior), speak rapidly and incoherently, go for prolonged periods without sleep, and exhibit excessive levels of activity. They may call their attorney repeatedly during the course of a single day, often late at night. They may write long, rambling letters to their attorney, suggesting courses of action which are either unrealistic or imprudent. When depressed, bipolar patients find little energy for anything. They experience periods of insomnia, rapid weight loss, loss of interest, memory loss, indecisiveness, and inability to concentrate. They may fail to return phone calls, forget to follow up on their attorney's requests, or express a sudden lack of interest in pursuing the litigation. It is essential that attorneys understand that their client's behavior is a result of a medical disorder, which can be controlled through proper treatment. It is also important that attorneys realize that these mood shifts are both episodic and temporary. Because they interact more frequently with clients than attorneys, it is particularly important for staff members to understand the nature of the illness and to avoid reaching unfair judgments about bipolar clients, as such judgments pose a long-term threat to the attorney-client relationship.

Moderators, wrong diagnosis and wrong treatment of patients with psychosis, by psychiatrists is a subject of medical malpractice .

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http://www.skipsimpson.com/article.html wrote

This surge in the number of lawsuits against mental health professionals is largely the product of three separate, but powerful changes in the mental health care delivery system. First, the development of relatively safe and powerful medications for the treatment of some of the most debilitating illnesses schizophrenia, depression, and bipolar disorder among them - helped to solidify what had beforehand been a very mushy standard of care. With power comes responsibility. Thus, ironically, the development of this new pharmacological arsenal boosted psychiatry's status in the medical community, while subjecting psychiatrists to increased malpractice exposure.

Good day.

AHHH...that means you also see the christ-psychotics-- who ACCEPT delusions as if they were reality just like the schizophrenia, temporal lobe epilepsy and dementiae sufferers-- as mentally ill?

Remember, a PH.D is not needed to SEE, that those unfortunate people infected with religious psychosis which makes their weak genetically defective brains, accept invisible friends as REAL, suffer from a neurological disorder and in need of treatment!. :)

Victus · 05-15-2006, 04:43 PM

Anon, you illiterate junky. Make relevant posts or get the flying fuck out of my threads.

05-15-2006, 05:56 PM

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anon wrote

Cal, I understand that you alone equate persons having religious beliefs to having a psychosis, and that MOST posters on this board and in the threads on this board, do NOT agree with your proposition. I certainly do NOT. Neither would the judges in American law courts, state or federal courts.

Whether a person has a psychosis, is a subject that calls for expert opinion and usually a psychiatrist but at times a licensed clinical psychologist. If you refer to the two links, one of them deals with the expert testimony given by a licensed clinical psychologist in a court room.

Hey, knucklehead, has anyone tendered any cash to cal for a diagnosis? Has an insurer done so? Does cal claim to be a medical professional? The answer is, obviously, no. His opinions have some value, just not what you want them to have. I think you should go find an xtian website that is pushing jeebus on unsuspecting people and give them a piece of your feeble intellect on the damage they do. It would be time better spent.

calpurnpiso · 05-15-2006, 06:32 PM

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anon wrote

Cal, I understand that you alone equate persons having religious beliefs to having a psychosis, and that MOST posters on this board and in the threads on this board, do NOT agree with your proposition. I certainly do NOT. Neither would the judges in American law courts, state or federal courts.

Whether a person has a psychosis, is a subject that calls for expert opinion and usually a psychiatrist but at times a licensed clinical psychologist. If you refer to the two links, one of them deals with the expert testimony given by a licensed clinical psychologist in a court room.

I ALONE? You do not read much do you?.The ACCEPTANCE of a delusion ( from where ALL religious beliefs get their dogma) as if it was REAL is symptom of MENTAL ILLNESS!!. This has NOTHING to do with the legal system of ANY COUNTRY on this planet. Legal system and neurology are separate things. If you accept an invisible friend as REAL and you are not 5 years old you are MENTALLY ILL, suffering from either schizophrenia, TLE or dementia. I must reminds you the vast majority of neurological disorders are IDIOPATHIC ( the cause is unkown). In the moment neurologist find the pathogen that causes religious-psychosis, the Christ-psychotics in the US are going to be treated LIKE ANY other mentally ill person. i,e Hitler, Jones, Koresh, Doe, Andrea Yates, Paul Hill, Eric Rudolph etc etc etc. Andrea Yates is a classical example of what Christ-pschosis can do.

....And the INCOMPETENT retards so called psychiatrists diagnosed her religious psychosis as Post Partum Depression!! What about her BELIEVE in an invisible friend JESUS responsible for her SENDING ( drowning ) her 5, not one, FIVE, of her children to 'see" him and leave this satanic earth?..and this is "post partum depression?..what about Doe and Koresh did they have PPD also?...:lol:...and PHELPS?...do you think he is mentally healthy? Who is this insane man and his insane family's invisible friend? Isn't is JESUS? Remember there are HUNDREDS of examples, and the difference between the Christ -psychotics and the chizophrenia sufferes is the TYPE of invisible friends they have!!:lol:....remember, the angel Moroni, the Holy Spirit, the Eagle Great Spirit of the Navajo, the UFO brain implants, the Jesus that saves with blood are ALL DELUSIONS. Aren't DISEASED brains those able to produced them?

if the show fits....Here, get educated..and this article is from NEUROLOGISTS.

http://www.psychminded.co.uk/news/ne...%20illness.htm

The brain make uswhat we are and when it gets SICK it ACCEPTS religious fantasies as if they were truly real. Deal with it. I suggest you study neurology and read:

"What's Thought" by Eric Braum (2004) "The Quest for Consciousness" a neurobiological approach, by Christoff Koch (2004) "The Astonishing Hypothesis " the scientific search for the soul, by Francis Crick (1994) then read about the JERUSALEM SYNDROME. A form of CHirst-psychosis discovered by Dr Yair Bar-El. It happens in Jerusalem ( The City of Nuts )

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/577180.stm

You have a LOT to learn. Hmm..infected with Christ-psychosis perhaps which produces such distorted thinking?..Do you hear advis from t he invisible friend Jesus?...do you see him? Does the Babble become alive while you are dreaming?
Do you have deep faith in invisible friends and supernatural phenomenae?..do you believe in ghosts?....those could be signs of a chemical imbalance precursor of full blown christ-psychosis ( Jones, Yates, Koresh etc)

An schizophrenic brain ( shown) and one infected with Christ-psychosis, light up in very similar areas...:)

Gnosital · 05-15-2006, 08:56 PM

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anon wrote

Poster scathach HAS an ERRONEOUS view of American law on defamation. The reason for his/her error is as follows:

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scathach wrote

Calling a person psychotic is not against the law, and unless said person could prove that the so-called libel or slander caused actual financial or physical harm, then said person’s lawsuit would be thrown out of court. So I’m guessing you’re not psychotic then, but bipolar?

scathach’s error is

1] erroneously assuming that damage has to be proven to the plaintiff’s reputation .

Well I guess that my lawyer colleague who told me that doesn't know anything about the law, and you and your 10 minutes of searching the web to copy and paste some completely unrelated bullshit most certainly equates to a law degree and 30 years of practice. Gracious, I don't know why anyone would bother with all that expense when they could just ask you for the correct information!

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anon wrote

Also seek psychiatric advice on use of terminology, word, diagnosis and treatment of psychosis, and bi-polar disorder.

Yes, I'll be sure to seek advice from an MD on use of terminology and word. Right after I finish giving my lecture on the topic of diagnosis and treatment of mental disorders.

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anon wrote

There is OR appears to be some misplaced grasp of psychosis and bipolar disorder and I reproduce the following for your consideration. skipsimpson.com/article.html judicial.state.sc.us/opinion … aseNo=3420

While I'm absolutely devastated that you've tattled on me to the moderators because you don't think I understand psychosis and bipolar disorder (Eva and Ten, are you also getting deluged with emails?) I prefer to get my grasp of the diagnostic criteria from my DSM. Your links are jejune (look it up on the web).

You're an idiot. Your mental disorder has so far prompted me toward pity, but don't push it. Or I will give you some REAL references. Now go take your Depakote and don't bother me anymore. I'm not interested in any of your "information" you gleaned from quickie web searches.

Oh and if you think you can claim damages for me calling you bipolar, then go ahead and sue me. And while you're at it, you can sue me for calling you a dumbass, too. Dumbass.