Faith is Greater than Reason

[Egor]

It is one thing to believe that which is right in front of you. I believe the sky is blue. I believe there are alligators in the lake next to my house. I believe gravity exists. There is no choice but to believe these things, and it is a very natural reaction to make reasonable judgments based on such knowledge that is so obvious to me.

If I go swimming in the lake, I might lose a foot. If I drop a water balloon off the Sears Tower in Chicago, it will make a big splash in the end. That's normal human reasoning based on direct observations connected with previous experience or the acquired knowledge of what has happened in the past (e.g., others have been bit by alligators in similar lakes).

But this is not the highest level of human mental functioning anymore than the peristalsis that leads to a good poop is a victory of human achievement. We observe and reason by reflex. Faith on the other hand requires will.

When we choose to believe, no matter what is presented to us, we are not only using our rational powers (because we reason that we are not being rational) but we also incorporate our will so that the entire process is more demanding than mere reasoning. It’s actually something that is very difficult to do.

If one is sick, and they choose to believe they have been healed even when they are still in pain or the symptoms persist, or if one simply chooses to have confidence in a situation even though there is only a 50/50 chance they will prevail, this takes more mental capability than simply being rational.

And I’m not talking about delusions here. A deluded person is still on the level of reasoning because they are sure their delusion is true. A deluded person may think they are protected against alligators by space aliens. That’s not faith. Such a person is using rational thinking when they go swimming in the lake. They’re wrong, of course, but they think they’re right; so, that’s not faith.

Because faith uses rationality as its stepping stone and then goes further through the use of will, it is obviously a greater use of human mental capabilities. And couldn't it be said that the use of will is more godlike than the use of rationality? Thus if there is a God, it may well be the case that we grow closer to Him via the use of faith.

[Smellyoldgit]

Who won the bet - I reckon the cunt barely lasted a week!!

[Stargazer]

Egor wrote

It is one thing to believe that which is right in front of you. I believe the sky is blue. I believe there are alligators in the lake next to my house. I believe gravity exists. There is no choice but to believe these things, and it is a very natural reaction to make reasonable judgments based on such knowledge that is so obvious to me.

If I go swimming in the lake, I might lose a foot. If I drop a water balloon off the Sears Tower in Chicago, it will make a big splash in the end. That's normal human reasoning based on direct observations connected with previous experience or the acquired knowledge of what has happened in the past (e.g., others have been bit by alligators in similar lakes).

But this is not the highest level of human mental functioning anymore than the peristalsis that leads to a good poop is a victory of human achievement. We observe and reason by reflex. Faith on the other hand requires will.

When we choose to believe, no matter what is presented to us, we are not only using our rational powers (because we reason that we are not being rational) but we also incorporate our will so that the entire process is more demanding than mere reasoning. It’s actually something that is very difficult to do.

If one is sick, and they choose to believe they have been healed even when they are still in pain or the symptoms persist, or if one simply chooses to have confidence in a situation even though there is only a 50/50 chance they will prevail, this takes more mental capability than simply being rational.

And I’m not talking about delusions here. A deluded person is still on the level of reasoning because they are sure their delusion is true. A deluded person may think they are protected against alligators by space aliens. That’s not faith. Such a person is using rational thinking when they go swimming in the lake. They’re wrong, of course, but they think they’re right; so, that’s not faith.

Because faith uses rationality as its stepping stone and then goes further through the use of will, it is obviously a greater use of human mental capabilities. And couldn't it be said that the use of will is more godlike than the use of rationality? Thus if there is a God, it may well be the case that we grow closer to Him via the use of faith.

Another stellar demonstration of how theists try to equate faith and reason when there is really no comparison. Faith, by definition, is based on trust or belief, whereas reason (as a noun) is the basis for a belief or action, or the explanation of such. As a verb, reason is to think or argue in a logical manner, to form conclusions, judgements or inferences from facts or premises, or to urge reasons which should determine belief or action. Naturally you are using faith in its narrower definition of belief in God or the doctrines or teachings of religion. You use reason to support the beliefs that underlie this faith.

What you're doing is suggesting faith trumps, or is superior to reason, when faith can hardly exist without reason, in actuality.

I think your whole premise above is actually intended to show that reasoning based on direct observation is inferior to reasoning based on the will alone, which you call faith, with no basis in fact to support it.

I find this ludicrous.

I can will myself to have faith in any number of things, including spontaneously sprouting wings, waving a wand and having the dishes do themselves, and making all men enjoy going to chick flicks.

[nkb]

Egor wrote

But this is not the highest level of human mental functioning anymore than the peristalsis that leads to a good poop is a victory of human achievement.

Well, in your case, a good poop is a victory of achievement for you.

Incidentally, we usually can't tell whether you've taken a good dump, or posted something you think is profound. It looks and smells about the same.

[West491]

Reason vs. Faith

Reason: information technology, clean water, hospitals, etc.

Faith: Warm and fuzzy feeling inside that makes me believe I'm more than just a hairless ape on a rock composed of 70% water.

So yes, you're right Wanchor, faith is "greater".

[Egor]

Stargazer wrote

Another stellar demonstration of how theists try to equate faith and reason when there is really no comparison. Faith, by definition, is based on trust or belief, whereas reason (as a noun) is the basis for a belief or action, or the explanation of such.

And that has what to do with my post?

As a verb, reason is to think or argue in a logical manner, to form conclusions, judgements or inferences from facts or premises, or to urge reasons which should determine belief or action. Naturally you are using faith in its narrower definition of belief in God or the doctrines or teachings of religion. You use reason to support the beliefs that underlie this faith.

Whatever. That’s not what I said. I said faith requires will. Reason does not.

What you're doing is suggesting faith trumps, or is superior to reason, when faith can hardly exist without reason, in actuality.

I’m not decrying reason. I’m saying it takes mental superiority to have faith as compared to reason alone.

I think your whole premise above is actually intended to show that reasoning based on direct observation is inferior to reasoning based on the will alone, which you call faith, with no basis in fact to support it.

Not reasoning based on will. That would be more like a delusion. It’s when the outcome or knowledge cannot be proved and one chooses to believe anyway. It’s the ability to make the choice to believe that no other animal and very few humans are capable of.

When Jesus said his disciples couldn’t do something because of their little faith. He wasn’t chastising them for having little faith; he was simply telling them that they have a very little amount of faith.

I find this ludicrous.

I can will myself to have faith in any number of things, including spontaneously sprouting wings, waving a wand and having the dishes do themselves, and making all men enjoy going to chick flicks.

I think it would be easier to move a mountain than the last one on your list.

But seriously, I doubt you can actually have faith in those things. You might be able to push yourself into a mental delusion, but to actually have faith that those things are true, especially given the futility and arbitrary unimportance of those things, would be a serious mental feat. I don’t have anywhere close to that ability in faith.

Thanks for the great response, Stargazer.

West491 wrote

Reason vs. Faith

West491 wrote

Reason: information technology, clean water, hospitals, etc.

Faith: Warm and fuzzy feeling inside that makes me believe I'm more than just a hairless ape on a rock composed of 70% water.

So yes, you're right Wanchor, faith is "greater".

Here’s how this is going to work: If you insult me personally, I will not respond to you. I realize it is difficult for atheists to control their behavior given that having no moral foundation over time destroys the conscience of an individual. Nonetheless. If you want a response, you’re going to have to mind your manners.

And what sucks is that I would have liked responding to what you wrote.

As for your moderator and admin, they can change my avatar to whatever they want. They are the only atheist group that does that kind of crap, and it makes them look like fools even to other atheist forum administrators. It makes them look like children and as if they can’t intellectually handle the discussion and as if they are too personally involved in the posts that appear in their forum—which makes them look small compared to others.

That being said, this is the new me—a less antagonistic me. But if I’m going to respect the members of this forum, shouldn’t I also receive a modicum of respect? Or am I right about atheist morality?

[ghoulslime]

Egor wrote

And I’m not talking about delusions here. A deluded person is still on the level of reasoning because they are sure their delusion is true. A deluded person may think they are protected against alligators by space aliens. That’s not faith. Such a person is using rational thinking when they go swimming in the lake. They’re wrong, of course, but they think they’re right; so, that’s not faith.

So a person who persists in believing that the God of Abraham made the world in six days, that we can from Adam and Eve, and that the world is only a few thousand years old, although scientific fact demonstrates otherwise, is delusional. Hmmm...thank you for pointing that out.

Why not just stick to your prideful bowel movements? It seems to be your sole competency.

[ghoulslime]

Egor wrote

Whatever. That’s not what I said. I said faith requires will.

Willful delusion!

Whatever! Why not take your bullshit somewhere else?

[Stargazer]

Definition of faith:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith


Definition of reason:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/reason


Please let me know if I read these wrong.

[Smellyoldgit]

E-bore wrote

Here’s how this is going to work:

You write shit - we mock it - simple!

Thick Cunt wrote

Or am I right about atheist morality?

No, as with most things you've written here, you're a sad lying fool.

[doG]

Post...stupid.
Profile picture...brilliant.

[Egor]

Stargazer wrote

Definition of faith:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith


Definition of reason:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/reason


Please let me know if I read these wrong.

They sound like correct dictionary definitions as dictionary definitions go, but what's your point?

Are you going to argue that reasoning is greater than faith? Or are you just tipping your king over at this point?

Smellyoldgit wrote

You write shit - we mock it - simple!

No, as with most things you've written here, you're a sad lying fool.

Yes, but your mocking doesn't matter. You're a negative, angry, anti-intellectual skeptic. There is absolutly no way you can demonstrate the behaviors you do in here and convince anyone that you're a happy person. So, your mocking is from below me, not above me.

You are proof that atheism fails as a life philosophy. If atheism is true and you are the end result of it, then it is better to be deluded all through life and at least have some reasonable measure of happiness until our final rest. If atheism is not true, well of course, we know that you're bound for hell--another great reason not to follow your lead.

Soon, I'm starting a blog and forum review. When I ran Christian Cross Talk, another blog I had back in 2008, those reviews drew a great deal of attention. How am I supposed to give this forum a good review, when you change my avatar whenever you get upset?

[Kate]

Wow, giving jeebus head now?

[Stargazer]

Faith is belief supported by reason. Any belief can presented by using reason, but reason does not have to be based on facts.

This is by the definitions.


What I think you're really trying to say is that faith, in the narrow way theists (or maybe just you) define it (belief in God based on will alone), is way better than the fact-based views expressed by atheists.

In other words, putting faith versus reason is nonsensical by the dictionary definitions, since one needs the other.

If I "tip my king" I will specifically say so, don't make assumptions. I'm not approaching this as a win-lose situation anyway. All I'm doing right now is defining terms in an effort to make your essay understandable. As it stands, the vagueness and loose usage of the terms faith and reason make it somewhat less than clear.

Actually, not very clear at all.

[West491]

Egor wrote

Here’s how this is going to work: If you insult me personally, I will not respond to you.

O noes! What iz I gon do without your impartation of intellects and wizdumb? Fuck off JesusHead, no one wants you here.

I'm putting it the nicest way I can.