Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-03-2011, 08:07 PM   #61
fiatlux
Member
 
fiatlux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 135
Quote:
West491 wrote View Post
We only 'need' god for as long as we believe he's real. The moment one performs an honest investigation of the claims made by his religion, his faith gradually crumbles and, soon, god is disposed of.
If we were vulcans and not humans, I would agree completely with you. But humans are notoriously driven by primal feelings, not facts. I guess what I'm saying is that I believe that on some level the god thing is an innate part of human nature - a powerful primal urge that gave early man some kind of evolutionary advantage. Even the new testies-ment Paul admitted that faith is illogical -- but said he believed the nonsense anyway.

Mind you I am a hardboiled atheist. I'm not making excuses for those who believe in god. Just trying to understand in intellectually honest terms why this stupid belief in the supernatural is so powerful and pervasive in every culture -- even in the face of zero tangible proof.

Sorry for the lame star trek reference, btw.

Oh, fuck. I overwound the toybot.
fiatlux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2011, 08:35 PM   #62
West491
Obsessed Member
 
West491's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Land, not water
Posts: 1,328
Quote:
fiatlux wrote View Post
Just trying to understand in intellectually honest terms why this stupid belief in the supernatural is so powerful and pervasive in every culture -- even in the face of zero tangible proof.
I see what you're saying.

And this is a question to which I have heard many responses (or opinions). Most responses have bordered along what you said. We have some innate desire to look up to something bigger.

I think it's interesting pondering on how a belief in a god provided evolutionary advantages. Although, participation in religion has some pretty obvious evolutionary advantages.

Quote:
fiatlux wrote View Post
Sorry for the lame star trek reference, btw.
What Star Trek reference? Pfft! I wouldn't know one if it slapped me in the face. Most inter-galatic shows/movies turn me off. Way too typical:

Evil aliens, from 1000 light years away, with their advanced technology and gigantic warships trying to destroy the ever so precious human race (don't know if Trek fits this description or not).
West491 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2011, 08:37 PM   #63
West491
Obsessed Member
 
West491's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Land, not water
Posts: 1,328
Quote:
fiatlux wrote View Post
What Star Trek reference? Pfft! I wouldn't know one if it slapped me in the face.
God bless Google!

Vulcans, or sometimes Vulcanians, are a fictional extraterrestrial humanoid species in the Star Trek universe who evolved on the planet Vulcan, and are noted for their attempt to live by reason and logic with no interference from emotion.

Your reference, it makes sense now.
West491 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2011, 04:56 AM   #64
ILOVEJESUS
I Live Here
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 5,158
I am sure that there is an in built need for humans to understand their surroundings, and with our evolved capabilities we are able to come up with all sorts of ideas as to existances creation and workings. Science turned out pretty well, evolving itself from various strange beliefs. Religion and pseudo science seem to be lame attempts that people either grow out of, or dig deeper holes in. For some people reality is more important than an idea that holds some kind of snuggly feeling of security, hence some people are able to dismiss God after believing , or analysing the evidence, and some are too scared.
We are wired to understand our surroundings. God is just one attempt of this. Luckily we have other ideas too!
ILOVEJESUS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2011, 06:35 AM   #65
clambake
shred
 
clambake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Allentown Pennsylvania USA
Posts: 1,038
Quote:
West491 wrote View Post
What Star Trek reference? Pfft! I wouldn't know one if it slapped me in the face.
Wait, you're a student at a US University and don't even have a passing knowledge of Star Trek? Seriously? Must be that lame school you go to.*






*I'm a Penn State grad neener neener

"Ignorance is not bliss; it is terrifying like walking blindfolded down a dark hallway full of set bear traps." ~ Sternwallow

Death will be like 1964 all over again.
clambake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2011, 07:19 AM   #66
Jimble
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 368
Quote:
West491 wrote View Post
I think it's interesting pondering on how a belief in a god provided evolutionary advantages. Although, participation in religion has some pretty obvious evolutionary advantages.
I'm not sure belief in God has its own advantages, rather that religion usurps a bunch of other useful traits within us. Like the familial bonds (Father X the priest) soaking up all information without question as children (obviously, children question incessantly, but are unskilled in critical thinking) , a childlike tendency to see objects as FOR something, and not just as things themselves (the rocks are so animals can scratch themselves, the flowers are there to look pretty when we see them) and so on.

You don't have the right not to be offended.
Jimble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2011, 07:19 AM   #67
West491
Obsessed Member
 
West491's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Land, not water
Posts: 1,328
Quote:
clambake wrote View Post
Wait, you're a student at a US University and don't even have a passing knowledge of Star Trek? Seriously? Must be that lame school you go to.*


*I'm a Penn State grad neener neener
Idk, It just never appealed to me. But plenty of students here are avid Star Trek (and Star Wars) fans. When they make Star Trek references, which isn't that often (I don't think), I just stare at them blankly.
West491 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2011, 07:23 AM   #68
Jimble
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 368
Oh and welcome fiatlux! I wouldn't know how to advice you on your family situation so I won't. Since in my family at least, after some protracted arguments on some topics, we have unspokenly agreed to disagree with each other.
(They're Buddhist, so not quite as dangerous as God-belief, but just as silly)

You don't have the right not to be offended.
Jimble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2011, 07:28 AM   #69
fiatlux
Member
 
fiatlux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 135
Quote:
ILOVEJESUS wrote View Post
I am sure that there is an in built need for humans to understand their surroundings, and with our evolved capabilities we are able to come up with all sorts of ideas as to existances creation and workings. Science turned out pretty well, evolving itself from various strange beliefs. Religion and pseudo science seem to be lame attempts that people either grow out of, or dig deeper holes in. For some people reality is more important than an idea that holds some kind of snuggly feeling of security, hence some people are able to dismiss God after believing , or analysing the evidence, and some are too scared.
We are wired to understand our surroundings. God is just one attempt of this. Luckily we have other ideas too!
I have never thought about it that way before. Especially when you think about how a completely superstitious system like alchemy somehow evolved into modern chemistry. It's astonishing. Like a tug of war between the religious thought that the original pseudo-science was based on and rationally processed thought. And, sweet sunny day, the rational thought won out. Completely. And it only took a few centuries.

Optimistic thought for a monday.

Oh, fuck. I overwound the toybot.
fiatlux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2011, 07:48 AM   #70
fiatlux
Member
 
fiatlux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 135
Quote:
Jimble wrote View Post
Oh and welcome fiatlux! I wouldn't know how to advice you on your family situation so I won't. Since in my family at least, after some protracted arguments on some topics, we have unspokenly agreed to disagree with each other.
(They're Buddhist, so not quite as dangerous as God-belief, but just as silly)

Thanks, Jimble. Sorry to hear about your misadventures in buddah land. It's good to be among semi-like-minded folks for once in my life.

Oh, fuck. I overwound the toybot.
fiatlux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2011, 08:15 AM   #71
Kate
Mistress Monster Mod'rator Spy
 
Kate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The North Coast
Posts: 15,426

"I do not intend to tiptoe through life only to arrive safely at death."
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
Kate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2011, 09:59 PM   #72
assilem
Member
 
assilem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 253
Quote:
West491 wrote View Post

What Star Trek reference? Pfft! I wouldn't know one if it slapped me in the face. Most inter-galatic shows/movies turn me off. Way too typical:

Evil aliens, from 1000 light years away, with their advanced technology and gigantic warships trying to destroy the ever so precious human race (don't know if Trek fits this description or not).
On the contrary, West, Vulcans came to Earth to save the human race with their advanced technology. The movie Star Trek: First Contact explains how/why Vulcans came to be known to Earth.

It's little things like this that makes Star Trek stand out from the typical science fiction.
assilem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2011, 10:04 PM   #73
Kinich Ahau
Obsessed Member
 
Kinich Ahau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Great Ocean Road
Posts: 2,917
Wow, the Geeks are all coming out to play!

Once you are dead, you are nothing. Graffito, Pompeii
Kinich Ahau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2011, 12:10 AM   #74
Sternwallow
I Live Here
 
Sternwallow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 23,211
Quote:
ILOVEJESUS wrote View Post
I am sure that there is an in built need for humans to understand their surroundings, and with our evolved capabilities we are able to come up with all sorts of ideas as to existances creation and workings. Science turned out pretty well, evolving itself from various strange beliefs. Religion and pseudo science seem to be lame attempts that people either grow out of, or dig deeper holes in. For some people reality is more important than an idea that holds some kind of snuggly feeling of security, hence some people are able to dismiss God after believing , or analysing the evidence, and some are too scared.
We are wired to understand our surroundings. God is just one attempt of this. Luckily we have other ideas too!
God takes the form of the major element in our young lives. Some cultures revere the Sun, others emphasize their fathers.

Either way, the figure must conceptually expand as we grow and learn, for instance, that our father, once invincible and omniscient, has become ordinary, weak and rather stupid.

Feeling ourselves to be unable to survive or thrive without the guidance and support we were used to, we must invent (or attach to the notion of) a "higher" power who even our own father must honor and obey.

It is IMV, the process of growing up to no longer need the protection of the Father figure, to accept risk and deal with it boldly, that we mean when we advise people to grow out of religion. It is the failure to grow up that keeps people fearful and dependent on religion.

"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
Sternwallow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2011, 12:14 AM   #75
Sternwallow
I Live Here
 
Sternwallow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 23,211
Quote:
West491 wrote View Post
Idk, It just never appealed to me. But plenty of students here are avid Star Trek (and Star Wars) fans. When they make Star Trek references, which isn't that often (I don't think), I just stare at them blankly.
Ah, Trek vs Wars, Worf could knock Vader on his opera-caped ass just by sneezing in that direction.

"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
Sternwallow is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:35 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin - Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2000 - , Raving Atheists [dot] com frequency-supranational frequency-supranational