02-12-2012, 11:55 AM
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#31
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,260
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Quote:
ubs wrote
Does it matter if the market demand is high?
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It should.
Allegedly, the whole reason that we're supposed to be concerned about the relative differences in STEM graduates is that said individuals are the drivers of innovation (people, of course, forget that innovation doesn't stop at national borders). How much innovation do we get from an unemployed engineer, or an engineer employed as a waiter because there's no (additional) demand for his skill-set?
Quote:
ubs wrote
The public paid to have our collective youths educated in a particular way, and the education fell short as determined by an agreed upon measure - comparative excellence.
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Not even comparative excellence, simply the completion of a particular degree type.
Quote:
ubs wrote
Since our performance was higher when money was spent at the local level, we should return to that model.
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In absolute terms, performance wasn't higher. It's just that the rest of the world caught up.
Quote:
ubs wrote
I think the chart on stem vs non stem unemployment speaks more to social mobility - or lack of - than it does to the value of Math.
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Except that it's not the case that people are being frozen out of tertiary education - in the US, they're simply choosing not to take STEM courses because people find them more difficult/unpleasant. STEM courses have high dropout and non-completion rates, and their share of degree holders has been falling over time (as the total number of degree holders has gone up). Not what you might expect from a mobility problem.
"When science was in its infancy, religion tried to strangle it in its cradle." - Robert G. Ingersoll
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02-12-2012, 12:13 PM
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#32
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I Live Here
Join Date: May 2007
Location: So Cal
Posts: 5,193
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Quote:
Victus wrote
It should.
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Don't judge us Bro!
Quote:
Victus wrote
Allegedly, the whole reason that we're supposed to be concerned about the relative differences in STEM graduates is that said individuals are the drivers of innovation (people, of course, forget that innovation doesn't stop at national borders). How much innovation do we get from an unemployed engineer, or an engineer employed as a waiter because there's no (additional) demand for his skill-set?
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Maybe we just want it. It's not your place to tell us how to spend our money. If we want to have the most basket weavers, clearly communicate that desire and pay to have the most basket weavers, we have a legitimate gripe if we don't get them. Educators engaged in false advertising. They violated a contract and should be dealt with accordingly!
Quote:
Victus wrote
In absolute terms, performance wasn't higher. It's just that the rest of the world caught up.
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The desire was to have more than everyone else. We don't care about genius, we just want to be the one eyed king.
Quote:
Victus wrote
Except that it's not the case that people are being frozen out of tertiary education -
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The chart was about employment, not number of graduates and it demonstrated that during certain period it was a statistical disadvantage to be the most qualified. That means some criteria other than ability is being used in the evaluation of candidates for hire, and any expression of personal prejudice on the part of business owners is a sign of market inefficiency. Market inefficiency equals social immobility.
Never give a zombie girl a piggy back ride.
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02-12-2012, 01:06 PM
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#34
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General of the Attacking Army
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 12,904
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Good job, Brick.
More fun with numbers:
Education spending in 1980 - $152 billion. 16.2% of total $940 billion spend.
Education spending in 2011 - $900 billion. 14.5% of total $6.2 trillion spend.
I will grieve. Grief is not a theistic concept. ~ Sternwallow
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02-12-2012, 01:17 PM
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#35
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,260
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Quote:
ubs wrote
Don't judge us Bro!
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*judges*
Quote:
ubs wrote
Maybe we just want it.
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Maybe some of you want it, but the group actually in place to make the decision, the students, appear to have other plans for their lives. Apparently they would prefer to study business, law, and the social sciences.
Quote:
ubs wrote
It's not your place to tell us how to spend our money.
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It's as much my business to tell you as it is for you to tell the people you're getting the money from in the first place.
Quote:
ubs wrote
If we want to have the most basket weavers, clearly communicate that desire and pay to have the most basket weavers, we have a legitimate gripe if we don't get them.
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Simple economics dictates that if you want more basket weavers, make baskets more profitable.
Quote:
ubs wrote
Educators engaged in false advertising. They violated a contract and should be dealt with accordingly!
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What contract?
Admit it, economic illiteracy feels good even when feigned.
Quote:
ubs wrote
The desire was to have more than everyone else. We don't care about genius, we just want to be the one eyed king.
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Err... valid point. I suppose.
Quote:
ubs wrote
The chart was about employment, not number of graduates and it demonstrated that during certain period it was a statistical disadvantage to be the most qualified.
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Nope, it demonstrated that it was a disadvantage to be educated in a particular (cluster of) qualifications. The level of qualification is roughly constant on the chart (> bachelor).
Quote:
ubs wrote
That means some criteria other than ability is being used in the evaluation of candidates for hire, and any expression of personal prejudice on the part of business owners is a sign of market inefficiency. Market inefficiency equals social immobility.
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Not necessarily. The bulge in STEM hiring occurred in the early 2000s. What happened then that might have specifically reduced demand for (at least some) STEM graduates? Some kind of dot-com bust, perhaps?
"When science was in its infancy, religion tried to strangle it in its cradle." - Robert G. Ingersoll
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02-12-2012, 01:25 PM
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#36
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 832
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Quote:
Professor Chaos wrote
Good job, Brick.
More fun with numbers:
Education spending in 1980 - $152 billion. 16.2% of total $940 billion spend.
Education spending in 2011 - $900 billion. 14.5% of total $6.2 trillion spend.
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The % decreased because other areas of the budget increased even more. Your point?
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02-12-2012, 01:27 PM
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#37
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,260
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Quote:
Brick wrote
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Quote:
Professor Chaos wrote
Good job, Brick.
More fun with numbers:
Education spending in 1980 - $152 billion. 16.2% of total $940 billion spend.
Education spending in 2011 - $900 billion. 14.5% of total $6.2 trillion spend.
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You two are being too rational about this. Obviously we need to think with our hearts about education!!! If spending money doesn't improve outcomes, then the only obvious thing to do is increase spending even more. WHY AREN'T YOU PEOPLE THINKING ABOUT THE CHIDLRENS!?!?!?
"When science was in its infancy, religion tried to strangle it in its cradle." - Robert G. Ingersoll
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02-12-2012, 01:32 PM
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#38
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 832
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02-12-2012, 03:40 PM
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#39
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I Live Here
Join Date: May 2007
Location: So Cal
Posts: 5,193
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Quote:
Victus wrote
Admit it, economic illiteracy feels good even when feigned.
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It tastes faintly of almonds.
Never give a zombie girl a piggy back ride.
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02-12-2012, 03:48 PM
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#40
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,260
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Quote:
ubs wrote
It tastes faintly of almonds.
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I see what you did there.
"When science was in its infancy, religion tried to strangle it in its cradle." - Robert G. Ingersoll
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02-13-2012, 05:19 AM
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#41
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Great Ocean Road
Posts: 2,917
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Whatever the argument here, there is one clear benefit of further education.
Once you are dead, you are nothing. Graffito, Pompeii
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02-14-2012, 06:25 PM
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#42
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 1,727
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This one's for you, Victus! Just found this article:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/13.7/2012/0...te?sc=fb&cc=fp
I thought you said you didn't care what any of us thought? So, you do care? I do wish you would make up your mind already. - NKB
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02-14-2012, 08:42 PM
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#43
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,328
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Good find,I enjoyed every bit of that, including some of the comments.
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02-14-2012, 09:00 PM
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#44
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 1,727
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Quote:
West491 wrote
Good find,I enjoyed every bit of that, including some of the comments.
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Thanks. And it wasn't quite as dry and clinical as some of the other ones have been.
One point I liked was that it's OK for science to be hard. In fact, that's the point. What we need is more people willing to do stuff that is hard.
I thought you said you didn't care what any of us thought? So, you do care? I do wish you would make up your mind already. - NKB
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02-14-2012, 09:10 PM
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#45
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,328
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Quote:
Stargazer wrote
One point I liked was that it's OK for science to be hard. In fact, that's the point. What we need is more people willing to do stuff that is hard.
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Yes.
The math and science we are learning today has been under construction (and still is) for a very long time. For one to think that he should be able to master the concepts with little effort is an extreme display of ignorance and arrogance. I'm ignoring the math and science geniuses in the population because they're so few in number.
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