God is real - Page 41

Sternwallow · 10-23-2008, 04:51 PM

Quote:

thomastwo wrote

Stern, I actually don't think that it does. What I think is that in many closed communities that people become careless with language and short-cut to commonly used conventions without considering the impact on the outsider ( RA could even be guilty of this). This clearly then jars when they step outside the community.

When I talk amongst my Christian community I do discuss in a very different way, and would sound, to your ears, much more certain and absolute about my beliefs.

Of course. I suspect that some communities you walk in, where certainty is the conversational norm, you might be stoned (figuratively if not literally) if your pretense of certainty wavered.

Sternwallow · 10-23-2008, 04:54 PM

Quote:

thomastwo wrote

Yes, what I believe could be totally untrue. I don't think that is at all likely or probable based on the available evidence but it could be the case.

Do you acknowledge the same thing ? Or do you have some method that provides certainty in knowing ?

OK, could we please see some of this available evidence? If it is only available to you then it is not really "available" in any useful sense.

Irreligious · 10-23-2008, 05:03 PM

Quote:

thomastwo wrote

No, you don't sound like a sceptic to me. Much too closed for that

Well, that's your opinion. I'd be lying if I said I could accommodate your arguments as you've presented them, thus far. I won't lie to you.

Quote:

thomastwo wrote

Yes, what I believe could be totally untrue. I don't think that is at all likely or probable based on the available evidence but it could be the case.

Do you acknowledge the same thing ? Or do you have some method that provides certainty in knowing ?

Nice hedging there.

"Yeah, I could be wrong, but I'm totally convinced that I'm not" ain't much of a concession, frankly. But it's honest. Sorta.

By the way, I don't claim certainty, either, but like you, I'm basing my incredulity on what is probable and, of course, on the lack of available evidence for the claims you have presented here.

calpurnpiso · 10-23-2008, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Sternwallow wrote

I don't think that revelation happens. We know of so many mechanisms by which experiences, which seem to be supernatural in general and revelatory in particular, but which are strictly natural exist. There are chemicals readily available that would make a Nun think she was in Nirvana.

If revelation did exist, it still would be unacceptably subjective to be admissible as evidence for any but strictly personal purposes.

IOW, revelation is fine if you like it, but it is personal and private so keep it to yourself.

"There are chemicals readily available that would make a Nun think she was in Nirvana."

Exactly, which makes the Bible the word of Drug not the word of an Imaginary friend as Thomastwo believes....what's wrong with this picture?

Revelations?..from where?..the outside "spirit world" or the depths of an erratic malfunctioning Brain( universe Within) filled with false memories & delusions engendered by bad DNA?

If I believe the stuff thomastwo believes, I'd definitively keep it to myself.

thomastwo · 10-23-2008, 05:07 PM

C'mon Irreligious, give me a break. You can't accuse me of hedging and then acknowledge the exact same thing yourself. Can you ? Anyway you threw in the "totally" to your description of my position, and I clearly disavowed that position. So what do you get out of misrepresenting me ? Atheist Club Points ?

thomastwo · 10-23-2008, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Sternwallow wrote

Of course. I suspect that some communities you walk in, where certainty is the conversational norm, you might be stoned (figuratively if not literally) if your pretense of certainty wavered.

No, it's not so much about the social norms, and more about the language of a closed community. At least in the communities I'm part of my position would be pretty normal. We just don't bother to nuance it in quite the same way as is necessary in front of you lot.

Irreligious · 10-23-2008, 05:28 PM

Quote:

thomastwo wrote

C'mon Irreligious, give me a break. You can't accuse me of hedging and then acknowledge the exact same thing yourself. Can you ? Anyway you threw in the "totally" to your description of my position, and I clearly disavowed that position. So what do you get out of misrepresenting me ? Atheist Club Points ?

Good gravy, man.

I'm not pretending to give an ounce of credibility to the notion that some desert-dwelling primitives figured out the secret to existence 4,000 to 6,000 years ago. And the probability that the alleged creator of the universe came down to earth in the guise of a man is something I find to be extremely remote, as remote as the discovery of the lost city of Atlantis. It does not comport in any way with how we know and understand the world to work.

Now, do I claim to know the secret of existence myself? Hell no. But I'm content to say I don't when I know that I don't. You, on the other hand, are coming at this in an entirely different way, making concessions for your religion that you don't appear to make for other people's religions or anything else in life, for that matter.

You concede that you don't really know, but you simultaneously believe you do, anyway. I am not doing that.

inkadu · 10-23-2008, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Irreligious wrote

I'm not pretending to give an ounce of credibility to the notion that some desert-dwelling primitives figured out the secret to existence 4,000 to 6,000 years ago. And the probability that the alleged creator of the universe came down to earth in the guise of a man is something I find to be extremely remote, as remote as the discovery of the lost city of Atlantis. It does not comport in any way with how we know and understand the world to work.

You're missing some of the nuance in your summary. And since thomastwo isn't going to talk nuance out of school, allow me: Yes, everything you said is the Christian version of reality, BUT you forgot to mention that when God came down to earth, he was a really, really, really nice guy.

Sternwallow · 10-23-2008, 05:55 PM

Quote:

thomastwo wrote

C'mon Irreligious, give me a break. You can't accuse me of hedging and then acknowledge the exact same thing yourself. Can you ? Anyway you threw in the "totally" to your description of my position, and I clearly disavowed that position. So what do you get out of misrepresenting me ? Atheist Club Points ?

Fifty-thousand atheist club points gets you a used toaster with bonus crumbs.

Irreligious · 10-23-2008, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Sternwallow wrote

Fifty-thousand atheist club points gets you a used toaster with bonus crumbs.

But... but I already got one of those sitting on my counter. Can't I have a used, big screen TV instead?

Sternwallow · 10-23-2008, 06:00 PM

Quote:

inkadu wrote

You're missing some of the nuance in your summary. And since thomastwo isn't going to talk nuance out of school, allow me: Yes, everything you said is the Christian version of reality, BUT you forgot to mention that when God came down to earth, he was a really, really, really nice guy.

I may be stuck with a bunch of outmoded old-onces, but that nice guy nuance seems to be a non-sequitur to me.

Sternwallow · 10-23-2008, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Irreligious wrote

But... but I already got one of those sitting on my counter. Can't I have a used, big screen TV instead?

No, but you can trade in your toaster for fifty-thousand atheist club points. See the back of the original package cover for premium redemption details.

calpurnpiso · 10-23-2008, 06:06 PM

I know the "secret of Existence".....1/2 billion years ago something called proto DNA begun to come into being due to by a series of accidents..it took millions of years to begun to act as a construction crew.......then in May 1941 a Lord Penis-Christ suddenly resurrected depositing offerings at the ovum shape altar inside a Cave of Creation. The offering was accepted and 40, million ( 40 is a magic number in all religious texts) swimming space capsules with tail propulsion begun a trek inside the inner galactic space
plunging into a mirror image of the universe when it was first conceived called the egg.

..then on the 19th day of the month honoring Februus, god of purification, of the year 2701auc (1942) the construction of an evolved mutated primate was finally completed under the instructions of DNA and expelled from the cave. I had been born in the image of the Lord and Savior Penis-Christ endowed with his own Penis-Christ image hanging between my legs.

So, why is this a "mystery of existence" so hard to understand?...Ahhh.. I forgot, Christian retards unable to grasp the meaning of life and purpose due to their deluded floating in the realm of Zombieland.

10-23-2008, 06:13 PM

"My only point is that I'm arriving at my understanding in a reasonable way, based on the evidence I see."

I believe you and I'm glad it works for.

However you may remain completely wrong. Evidence and logic are both fallible. I guess that's why believers at base rely on faith,which is unprovable and unfalsifiable.

Faith is of no use to the sincere atheist,although the rational and intellectually secure amongst us can understand it without being derisive. Possibly because many of us grew up with some kind of religious faith.

inkadu · 10-23-2008, 06:37 PM

Quote:

BOF wrote

However you may remain completely wrong. Evidence and logic are both fallible. I guess that's why believers at base rely on faith,which is unprovable and unfalsifiable.

You can not contrast faith in received teachings with evidence. If you're contrasing evidence in the scientific sense, the reasonable religious analogue is "revelation." That is, visions, dreams, conversations with God (in whatever manner you have them), etc...

Believers do not rely on faith for information. They rely on authority from their religious masters. Faith is merely the chain that binds them to the belief system. Faith is 100% content free.