Hen walks to her eggs and sitting on them!

[ahoba]

Hobotronic2037 wrote

Ok, first off God doesn't exist. So it would be hard for something that doesn't exist to mediate instinct in a species.

Secondly, I'll go with your definition of instinct for now but it's probably more complicated than that.

Third, I can't answer this definitively, but from what I've observed, instinct is passed on to the majority of offspring. But not all. My current working model is that instinct is encoded genetically, and, like all things genetic, sometimes doesn't express itself for whatever reason. Think Mendel and the bean plants as a simplified model for how genetic expression unfolds.

Have you ever wondered if belief in a god or gods is a human instinct? After all, all cultures from time immemorial do it. All with different gods and metaphysical meanderings and what not.

What if your belief in a creator God is just a expression of your? It makes more sense than faith in omnipotent and invisible beings, at the very least.

Can you please clarify this 'sometimes doesn't express itself for whatever reason' and how is the instinct of sitting on the eggs encoded without intervention of a mediator?

Regards,

[Hobotronic2037]

ahoba wrote

Can you please clarify this 'sometimes doesn't express itself for whatever reason' and how is the instinct of sitting on the eggs encoded without intervention of a mediator?

Regards,

Many factors could contribute to why genetic traits aren't always expressed. Malnutrition. Trauma. Birth defects. Birth affects. Genetic drift or mutation. Malfunctioning physiology of an organism. Recessive traits being expressed instead. Disease. Incomplete or damaged genetic code. An extra chromosome. Etcetera. That just scratched the surface, I'm sure.

There is a process that encodes genetic information, obviously. Hint: it's a natural process and not a supernatural one because, hint, the supernatural does not exist.

[ahoba]

Many thanks. When was the first instinct of sitting on the eggs encoded?

[Hobotronic2037]

ahoba wrote

Many thanks. When was the first instinct of sitting on the eggs encoded?

No idea. I do believe it was considerably before October 23, 4004 bc. If that's of any help to you.

[ahoba]

Hobotronic2037 wrote

No idea. I do believe it was considerably before October 23, 4004 bc. If that's of any help to you.

In other word, in which level could the instinct of sitting on eggs be encoded based on the evolution chart http://i.imgur.com/XF7GGNK.jpg?

[Hobotronic2037]

ahoba wrote

In other word, in which level could the instinct of sitting on eggs be encoded based on the evolution chart http://i.imgur.com/XF7GGNK.jpg?

Probably about the time birds started regularly started sitting on their eggs to hatch them. Give or take a million years or so.

[ahoba]

So, the instinct of sitting on eggs was not created before the birds although there were other living organisms. You described this by natural process not supernatural process.
I will go with your opinion that everything exist in the universe is created by natural process not by God. If I ask non-programmer to develop a program, he will not able to do that. So how the natural process can encode the instinct of sitting on eggs especially for birds no other animal! What is that encoded impelling the bird to sit on the objects out of the body?! This is a perfect program. I cannot say it is done by natural process but by a supernatural process, right? This is a supernatural process and could not be a natural process.
I hope you imagine and understand my confusion.

[Hobotronic2037]

ahoba wrote

So, the instinct of sitting on eggs was not created before the birds although there were other living organisms. You described this by natural process not supernatural process.
I will go with your opinion that everything exist in the universe is created by natural process not by God. If I ask non-programmer to develop a program, he will not able to do that. So how the natural process can encode the instinct of sitting on eggs especially for birds no other animal! What is that encoded impelling the bird to sit on the objects out of the body?! This is a perfect program. I cannot say it is done by natural process but by a supernatural process, right? This is a supernatural process and could not be a natural process.
I hope you imagine and understand my confusion.

Programmers exist and have observed behaviors. The supernatural doesn't exist and therefore unobservable. Not sure where the confusion is. Sorry u don't understand.

[ahoba]

If someone says no one develop 'abc' software. Is it natural or supernatural?

[Hobotronic2037]

ahoba wrote

If someone says no one develop 'abc' software. Is it natural or supernatural?

Again, supernatural is not an option, as it does not exist.

Genetics is not software. It's analogous in some ways and semantically, but it's a different type of coding developed passively over millions of years by natural processes of exclusion of non beneficial behaviors due to their inability to provide for the survival and passing on of those traits.

I've been thinking about this and have realized that it's theoretically possible that it the nesting instinct actually developed in the egg laying reptiles that were ancient ancestors of birds. It would advantage the survival of a species to protect their eggs. Lots of egg laying animals do this by burying their egg clusters, but staying close to the eggs would also possibly help them keep predators away by exhibiting aggressive behaviors toward interlopers.

With the advent of warm blooded egg laying species such as birds, the warmth would add another force multiplying benefit to sitting on eggs, that of thermal incubation.

It's really pretty easy to see how a tendency toward these behaviors would be more likely survive in those creatures that exhibited them. And only the creatures that survive actually pass their dna down. It's a pretty simple thing to understand. No god needed. Which is good, because no god exists.

[Michael]

Hobotronic2037 wrote

Again, supernatural is not an option, as it does not exist.

Genetics is not software. It's analogous in some ways and semantically, but it's a different type of coding developed passively over millions of years by natural processes of exclusion of non beneficial behaviors due to their inability to provide for the survival and passing on of those traits.

I've been thinking about this and have realized that it's theoretically possible that it the nesting instinct actually developed in the egg laying reptiles that were ancient ancestors of birds. It would advantage the survival of a species to protect their eggs. Lots of egg laying animals do this by burying their egg clusters, but staying close to the eggs would also possibly help them keep predators away by exhibiting aggressive behaviors toward interlopers.

With the advent of warm blooded egg laying species such as birds, the warmth would add another force multiplying benefit to sitting on eggs, that of thermal incubation.

It's really pretty easy to see how a tendency toward these behaviors would be more likely survive in those creatures that exhibited them. And only the creatures that survive actually pass their dna down. It's a pretty simple thing to understand. No god needed. Which is good, because no god exists.

Nice answer.

$20 says it goes over ahoba's head.

[Hobotronic2037]

Michael wrote

Nice answer.

$20 says it goes over ahoba's head.

Thanks. I'm not taking your bet.

That said, I'd like to get your thoughts on something. In an earlier post in this thread I brought up the thought that perhaps the near universal belief in a supernatural by people all over the planet could be an instinct for our species.

What do you think of that musing. I'm just curious what other atheists think.

[AtomJack]

I have seen some literature referring to this. Don't remember where; it's been awhile. Something to do with differences in the brain (not necessarily meaning a bad difference). I do recall seeing where people were made to "feel god" when a part of their brain was stimulated (electro)magnetically.

OK, this may be one-

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sc...t-1641022.html

Richard Dawkins says "No god effect noted". Quelle fucking surprise. Maybe a new thread for this, so that ahoba can incubate it's eggs in peace? BTW, I'm not convinced that religious belief is a survival trait, as posited in the article, given the current state of affairs in the world.

[Sinfidel]

AtomJack wrote

OK, this may be one-

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sc...t-1641022.html

Hobotronic replied:

Quote:
So if it's on the Internet it's true. Got it.

This must be true as well.

http://www.raelpress.org

Who knew??

[ahoba]

First of all, I am not here to fight but to know how you think. I have not yet understood how can something created in perfect form without someone? It is same as computer program.

Hobotronic2037 wrote

Again, supernatural is not an option, as it does not exist.

Genetics is not software. It's analogous in some ways and semantically, but it's a different type of coding developed passively over millions of years by natural processes of exclusion of non beneficial behaviors due to their inability to provide for the survival and passing on of those traits.

I've been thinking about this and have realized that it's theoretically possible that it the nesting instinct actually developed in the egg laying reptiles that were ancient ancestors of birds. It would advantage the survival of a species to protect their eggs. Lots of egg laying animals do this by burying their egg clusters, but staying close to the eggs would also possibly help them keep predators away by exhibiting aggressive behaviors toward interlopers.

With the advent of warm blooded egg laying species such as birds, the warmth would add another force multiplying benefit to sitting on eggs, that of thermal incubation.

It's really pretty easy to see how a tendency toward these behaviors would be more likely survive in those creatures that exhibited them. And only the creatures that survive actually pass their dna down. It's a pretty simple thing to understand. No god needed. Which is good, because no god exists.

No issue. Supernatural does not exist, so what is your opinion regarding the software that is not developed by any one!

Genetics is not software. It's analogous in some ways and semantically, but it's a different type of coding developed passively over millions of years by natural processes of exclusion of non-beneficial behaviors due to their inability to provide for the survival and passing on of those traits.

If the natural processes develop an instinct that living organism has to follow, this is like built in macro. The concept of computer program is same as the concept of Genetics.
On the other hand, if the natural processes change genes to generate something different, how many are the negative possibilities to the positive possibilities?
Even though this process happened over millions or billions of years, it doesn’t matter, the natural processes will not stop doing the same. Based on your view, the evolving from x to y should be observed around us. Have you seen the non-beneficial behaviors? Do you know how many are the species right now? We have more than one million species! Why do all chickens sit on the eggs? The natural processes did not find other behavior?? Strange! Why do the natural processes not vary instincts for some chicken obviously?

“Theoretically possible!” you said! Are you sure??? Please think again one more time?!! How come??
Okay! Existing creator is also possible theoretically, however, existing creator more logical!
It is God phobia leading you to say something not logical. What is the problem if you say ‘There is a creator but I do not believe it is God. I will not follow any religion because all religions are human made” and then relax!