Veridican Theory of Hell

[Egor]

Michael wrote

Although I guess I do have one question:
Having seen the ridiculous number of changes "veridicanism" has gone through just in the lsat 6 months, do you honestly expect anyone to convert to something that clearly doesn't even know what it actually is?

No, I don't expect anyone to ever convert to it. I actually don't know what I'd do if someone did. I think that would be their business and not mine. I want to sell books to those who are interested in reading them. If this is ever going to be an organization, God will have to lead others to create that. My job is to form it--and of course, live it.

And it is in the formation stage; it's not three hundred years down the road. It really won't be formed until I publish this next book. After that, I'm going to have to stick by what I've published, so that will automatically stop its evolution.

Nobody is going to join a cult that says "god is this..." if they know you're just as likely after they convert to turn around and say "actually no, god is this.....".

People who join cults follow the people who start cults. They don't follow the philosophy. Most of the time, they don't even believe the philosophy; they just need to follow. And Veridicanism is not a cult.

I mean, I'm no doctor, but it seems like a pretty basic staple of human emotions that people want stability, and you would think that god would understand this, and not jerk everyone around like this by making you change your mind every 20 seconds.

Aside from me and my wife who are the only members of this religion and who are the ones making the changes, there is no one dependent on the stability of it. So there's no harm.

If this book makes it out this year, that will be the end of the changes--in my lifetime anyway.

It's a really big clue that 'god'* is just making this up as you go along.

I'm not making it up, I'm praying, hearing God, and figuring it out.

*make no mistake, I am definitely indicating that you are a) not actually hearing from god at all, and b) think yourself some sort of 'god' to be followed.

How would you know? You're an atheist. You would have no way of knowing if I were hearing from God or not. You are completely deaf to God. As for me being a God; I don't think so.

And make no mistake, Michael, you could never do what I'm doing.

[Irreligious]

Egor wrote

And make no mistake, Michael, you could never do what I'm doing.

Yeah, it's obviously not in him to lead others astray. He has scruples.

[Smellyoldgit]

[Michael]

Egor wrote

No, I don't expect anyone to ever convert to it. I actually don't know what I'd do if someone did.

In all seriousness, if you don't expect anyone to convert, what is the point of all this?

"Oh, hey, I fully don't anticipate you believing a word I have to say, and frankly I haven't even given thought to what I would do if you did, but you should definately read this book outlining exactly how I think you should think about the bible and jesus. Frankly I think if you don't believe this you're going to hell.

But actually I don't expect you to believe this. But if you don't believe it, you're going to hell.

But you shouldn't believe it. I don't really expect that, you hell-bound loser".

So which is it? Either you are putting out the website, the blog, the books so that people will see "veridicanism" and follow what you seem to think they should believe, or you don't actually care at all, in which case you're going to extraordinary lengths to tell people about something you don't think they should really pay that much attention to.

Egor wrote

People who join cults follow the people who start cults. They don't follow the philosophy. Most of the time, they don't even believe the philosophy; they just need to follow.

Really? So you're not some spiritual leader who "speaks to god", gets the messages of what "veridicans" should believe, and then passes that message on?

So if I was to become a veridican, and then decided "hang on, I disagree with you. Veridicanism should mean this. This is what veridicanism means", you'd be fine with that?
Or would you, as one who "speaks to god" say "no, I'm the one who says what it is. I created it. God told me what veridicanism is"?

Because that sounds like they should be following you.

Of course, if you have no problem with it, then perhaps Raving Atheists should submit their own "guide to veridicanism" to amazon. Unless, of course, it really is about what god tells you.

Egor wrote

And Veridicanism is not a cult.

Then everything you just said has no bearing. So I'll say it again, people aren't going to join veridicanism if it's shown to be be constantly unable to decide on it's basic tenets.

Egor wrote

Aside from me and my wife who are the only members of this religion and who are the ones making the changes, there is no one dependent on the stability of it. So there's no harm.

See above on my point about why, if you don't want anyone to join this "club" and think like you do, are you going to so much effort to tell them about it?

Egor wrote

If this book makes it out this year, that will be the end of the changes--in my lifetime anyway.

Didn't you write this book 6 or seven years ago? And aren't you still making changes?

And didn't you supposedly "submit" the book to publishers already?

I don't know about you, but that sounds like at some point you were pretty sure that was going to be the end of any changes to it. After-all, I don't submit something to be printed if I think I'm going to make drastic changes to it.

So it sounds like you're talking shit.

Egor wrote

I'm not making it up, I'm praying, hearing God, and figuring it out.

See above about cults.

How would you know? You're an atheist. You would have no way of knowing if I were hearing from God or not. You are completely deaf to God. As for me being a God; I don't think so.

Eh, I've got nothing to say about this, really. Except that from all that I've seen and read about you (including your blog, I've been there), you seem to have a undiagnosed multiple-personality disorder that you refuse to get treated because it "doesn't affect your everyday life".

My brother is a drug addict. He is constantly telling me that he can afford his drug use, and it doesn't affect his "everyday life". He was telling me about that even as he asked me if I had a spare $15 so he could buy smokes, since he had no money. He was telling me that even after one of his dealers almost broke his jaw and he came home, packed his things in a panic and left town so that they wouldn't break his legs/do worse things to him.

My point is that he had convinced himself of this fact and nothing, even all the evidence to the contrary, staring/punching him in the face, would make him realise that he wasn't okay, and that it was affecting his life.

Think about it.
Take the hint when it punches you in the face.

Egor wrote

And make no mistake, Michael, you could never do what I'm doing.

Go out of my way to tell everyone I'm hearing god speak to me, tell everyone who doesn't believe what I believe they'll go to hell, and then lie to myself and them that I don't actually care what they believe?

You're right, I could never do that. I have integrity.

[Smellyoldgit]

This was quite enough ....

Michael wrote

it sounds like you're talking shit.

.... you really could have saved yourself a lot of typing.

[Davin]

Egor wrote

I haven't been here because A. I've been answering questions about Veridicanism in a real atheist forum[...]

So Egor doesn't think this forum is real, but thinks that a god is...

[Egor]

Michael wrote

In all seriousness, if you don't expect anyone to convert, what is the point of all this?

Michael wrote

"Oh, hey, I fully don't anticipate you believing a word I have to say, and frankly I haven't even given thought to what I would do if you did, but you should definately read this book outlining exactly how I think you should think about the bible and jesus. Frankly I think if you don't believe this you're going to hell.

But actually I don't expect you to believe this. But if you don't believe it, you're going to hell.

But you shouldn't believe it. I don't really expect that, you hell-bound loser".

So which is it? Either you are putting out the website, the blog, the books so that people will see "veridicanism" and follow what you seem to think they should believe, or you don't actually care at all, in which case you're going to extraordinary lengths to tell people about something you don't think they should really pay that much attention to.

First, I am doing what God has told me to do. So whether or not you believe what I’m saying or don’t, It’s not really up to me, nor is it much of my concern. Right now, I’d rather people just stood back and watched. I am currently outlining the book right now which will set everything in stone, then yeah, my emphasis will change from developing to teaching, and then I’d want people to follow (in the academic sense of the word).

Really? So you're not some spiritual leader who "speaks to god", gets the messages of what "veridicans" should believe, and then passes that message on?

A time is coming, and in fact it’s already here, when religion won’t have any leaders. The only leader in Veridicanism is Jesus Christ. Either you are one with him, or nothing else matters. And if you are one with Christ, who then could ever be your “spiritual leader”?

So if I was to become a veridican, and then decided "hang on, I disagree with you. Veridicanism should mean this. This is what veridicanism means", you'd be fine with that?

You wouldn’t be a Veridican any longer if you didn’t agree with what Veridicanism taught. We believe in following Jesus Christ as we understand him through the Gospel of Christ and we practice the three spiritual exercises of Veridicanism: Animal care, physical fitness, pursuit of purpose.

I don’t know. Who knows, maybe there will be a Veridican church someday. It would be good if those who say they believe in the principles of Veridicanism could come together. I just don’t think it’s going to happen in my lifetime. My goal is to publish as many books about the teachings of Jesus Christ as I can. First, of course, I had to publish the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and then I have to outline Veridicanism in this next book which will include reasons to believe in God and the immortal soul. After that will come the fun stuff.

Maybe I am a leader of sorts. Maybe you’re right about that and I’m just ducking my responsibilities.

Or would you, as one who "speaks to god" say "no, I'm the one who says what it is. I created it. God told me what veridicanism is"? Because that sounds like they should be following you.

I guess it depends on what connotation we put on the word follow. In cults, it’s always about the leader and never the message. It’s always corrupt that way. But I think it is true that I have some responsibility to lead if I’m the one being given the messages. I’m just not sure how that’s going to work out.

Of course, if you have no problem with it, then perhaps Raving Atheists should submit their own "guide to veridicanism" to amazon. Unless, of course, it really is about what god tells you.

Good point.

Then everything you just said has no bearing. So I'll say it again, people aren't going to join veridicanism if it's shown to be be constantly unable to decide on it's basic tenets.

That is true, and I would suppose the tenets of Veridicanism would stem from the purpose of Veridicanism which is to be the message of Christ in a post-Christian world.

See above on my point about why, if you don't want anyone to join this "club" and think like you do, are you going to so much effort to tell them about it?

I may have been wrong about that.

Didn't you write this book 6 or seven years ago? And aren't you still making changes?

I initially wrote The Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ in 2005. It hasn’t changed. It will be available in about a week on Amazon. That’s our “Bible.” That hasn’t changed at all. All the changes I’m talking about are to the “system” of Veridicanism.

And didn't you supposedly "submit" the book to publishers already?

No. I’ve never written a book about Veridicanism before.

My brother is a drug addict. He is constantly telling me that he can afford his drug use, and it doesn't affect his "everyday life". He was telling me about that even as he asked me if I had a spare $15 so he could buy smokes, since he had no money. He was telling me that even after one of his dealers almost broke his jaw and he came home, packed his things in a panic and left town so that they wouldn't break his legs/do worse things to him.

My point is that he had convinced himself of this fact and nothing, even all the evidence to the contrary, staring/punching him in the face, would make him realise that he wasn't okay, and that it was affecting his life.

I’m sorry about your brother. You should pray for him; it will help.

As for me, I’m definitely not a multiple personality disorder. I am one with Christ in a post-Christian world doing the best I can to live according to God’s will. That’s not a mental disorder, and if it is, I want it.

[Eternal]

Egor, in the above post you state the second someone doesn't believe it they are no longer veridican. In earlier posts you were saying everyone should build a personal relationship with jesus and start their own little personal religion. Now you are saying yours is THE way, and that it is inflexible. Basically they follow your one true path as laid out to you from god or they are going to hell.

Do you not see the contradictions here? Do you not think that someone so inconsistent must question his ability to guide oth.................... fuck it. I can't be arsed, your a fucking deluded twat that needs the help of a mental health professional. I could point out contradictions and unanswered questions throughout this thread, but what is the fucking point when you only see what you want to see and ignore all else.

[Sol]

Eternal wrote

I can't be arsed, your a fucking deluded twat that needs the help of a mental health professional.

The thing is little Eddie is a mental health "professional"

Over here he would be fucking struck off for bringing his profession into disrepute........

And as for those enablers over on a "real" atheist forum...... you wouldn't believe the shite they come out with.....

[lostsheep]

Is anyone else a little bit worried about Egor? I mean, about his delicate mental condition? Seriously. Hopefully he has a life outside of the internet.

[lostsheep]

Sol wrote

The thing is little Eddie is a mental health "professional"

Over here he would be fucking struck off for bringing his profession into disrepute........

And as for those enablers over on a "real" atheist forum...... you wouldn't believe the shite they come out with.....

Srsly? This guy has a mental health license of some sort? And I am curious about this "real atheist" forum.

[Egor]

Eternal wrote

Egor, in the above post you state the second someone doesn't believe it they are no longer veridican. In earlier posts you were saying everyone should build a personal relationship with jesus and start their own little personal religion. Now you are saying yours is THE way, and that it is inflexible. Basically they follow your one true path as laid out to you from god or they are going to hell.

Eternal wrote

You have the unique opportunity of watching the evolution of a new religion. And I have to say that the requirements to escape hell are laid out by Jesus Christ, not by me.

Having said that, the purpose of Veridicanism is to replace Christianity as the religion that follows Jesus Christ. Christianity is sinking fast. There will come a time, and maybe it’s here already, when being a Christian will not suffice.

For example, if one believes that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life and that no one comes to the Father except through him, and then if they say that all religions lead to God, they prove they have no faith in the teachings of Jesus Christ. They have let their fear of social disdain overcome their faith in Christ.

When Joel Osteen, the undisputed heavyweight champ of Christian Ministries said on Larry King that he couldn’t say who would or would not go to heaven, he denied his faith in Christ.

Eventually, Veridicanism will be the only religion following Christ.

Do you not see the contradictions here? Do you not think that someone so inconsistent must question his ability to guide oth.................... fuck it. I can't be arsed, your a fucking deluded twat that needs the help of a mental health professional. I could point out contradictions and unanswered questions throughout this thread, but what is the fucking point when you only see what you want to see and ignore all else.

What does “I can’t be arsed” mean, anyway?

[Irreligious]

lostsheep wrote

Is anyone else a little bit worried about Egor? I mean, about his delicate mental condition? Seriously. Hopefully he has a life outside of the internet.

No. I'm not even a little bit worried. The frequency of Egor's posts tells me that he is, at least, feeding himself or someone is. Yeah, he seems to spend a lot of time on the Internet, but so do a few of us here.

Otherwise, as nutty as he sounds to many of us, Egor is either a very committed troll or just another very sincere but misguided individual who is passionately committed to his own idiosyncratic brand of lunacy. Again, he is not alone in the world on that front, either. Unfortunately.

[lostsheep]

Irreligious wrote

No. I'm not even a little bit worried. The frequency of Egor's posts tells me that he is, at least, feeding himself or someone is. Yeah, he seems to spend a lot of time on the Internet, but so do a few of us here.

Otherwise, as nutty as he sounds to many of us, Egor is either a very committed troll or just another very sincere but misguided individual who is passionately committed to his own idiosyncratic brand of lunacy. Again, he is not alone in the world on that front, either. Unfortunately.

He just sounds desperate at times, and I picture him as borderline or even out-right delusional, based on what he writes. But I suppose you are correct; there are many crazies and some of them are politicians, now that I think about it (depressing).

[Eternal]

Egor wrote

You have the unique opportunity of watching the evolution of a new religion. And I have to say that the requirements to escape hell are laid out by Jesus Christ, not by me.

Having said that, the purpose of Veridicanism is to replace Christianity as the religion that follows Jesus Christ. Christianity is sinking fast. There will come a time, and maybe it’s here already, when being a Christian will not suffice.

When you first started posting here Veridicanism was purely for you and your wife. It has evolved from that to a replacement for the biggest religion in the western world. Can you understand why people on here are worried about either your stability, or your intellectual honesty? Personally I believe you knew all this when you first started posting, but you had an image in your head of how you should present yourself, a big part of this self image was humility. Saying you are going to replace christianity is not humble, so you avoided taking this stance.

For example, if one believes that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life and that no one comes to the Father except through him, and then if they say that all religions lead to God, they prove they have no faith in the teachings of Jesus Christ. They have let their fear of social disdain overcome their faith in Christ.

So if the only way to the father is through christ (i'm going to presume christ is real momentarily) what about all those people that live and have lived without any knowledge of christ. There must be millions if not billions burning in hell who never even had an opportunity to follow christ, through no fault of their own. Is this just? Is this the way? It is definitely part of your truth.

When Joel Osteen, the undisputed heavyweight champ of Christian Ministries said on Larry King that he couldn’t say who would or would not go to heaven, he denied his faith in Christ.

You failed to answer my question on this matter earlier in the thread, as far as I am concerned making you unable to answer the same question Joel Osteen failed to answer. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and repeat the question in case you missed it.

Imagine a man who spends his whole life sinning, never contributing to society in a positive way. Hurting people unashamedly, with no remorse. Then at the age of seventy, after committing one final rape he gives himself to jesus with all his might, he reads the bible for 8 hours a day and lives by what you define as its guidelines. He dies one month after then goes to the father in heaven.

Man number two. He loves humanity, lives a life of self sacrifice to help others. The majority of his life is spent helping the sick and dying, working towards providing better facilities for the living, mostly at his own expense both emotionally and financially. He doesn't consider religion much, he certainly doesn't adhere to any as he is far too busy helping people, leaving him no time to do something as selfish as worry about his eternal soul.

By your definition man number two would go to hell.

The questions. Is this just? Do you not think that any realistic description of a just and loving father must include provisions for such cases?

Eventually, Veridicanism will be the only religion following Christ.



What does “I can’t be arsed” mean, anyway?

So now you believe that veridicanism will be the last one standing in terms of following christ. Your delusions of grandeur grow by the post. (I know, I know, they are not delusions, just what god has told you).

"I can't be arsed" is another way of saying "I can't be bothered". It's a regional term. I should have used correct English, but quite frankly I couldn't be arsed.