US 21st in the world in science and math graduates

[Victus]

Stargazer wrote

I actually tested with a very low aptitude for math...

Actually, it's a wonder I'm not dead.

The point is, you don't have to become a one-dimensional person as far as learning goes. You can learn a lot about "STEM" subjects even without majoring in them, as well as other things.

But that undercuts the concern about there not being 'enough' STEM graduates.

Star wrote

As far as Liberal Arts and the Humanities being "easy," well, there are some other factors (having taken both kinds of classes!). One of the major factors is the way they are taught. Liberal Arts and Humanities professors tend to be upbeat, (dare I say) imaginitive people who approach their subject like storytelling and engage students on multiple levels. Math and science professors, as a general rule, have a tendency to stand at the chalkboard and drone on, seldom interjecting the whys and wherefores of the particular subject at hand, and/or either the practical application or importance to another procedure. While it's not impossible to learn from a person like this (I did!) you have to do a lot of the energy and storytelling (yes even in math there can be a story) yourself.

See above.

None of which changes the underlying fact that science courses are harder. The smartest students go into them, then drop or fail out en mass. They study harder (or longer), and get lower grades.

Star wrote

You're right. Incentives like money are used to accomplish much the same thing.

So why would it matter where the scientists are trained, or even where they eventually work?

Star wrote

You are a scientist! I did not know that. What kind of science? This is exciting!

Psychology/Neuropsychology/Statistics, with some background in Epidemiology.

Star wrote

Up to a point. Some prefer to remain were they are for a myriad of reasons, some logical, some not.

It either satisfies their preferences or it doesn't.

Star wrote

"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country..."

I believe that's the speech by President John F. Kennedy that inspired enough pride in Americans to get us to the moon.

I'm not sure why anyone should have been forced to pay for that.

Star wrote

Now, now, let's not make scientists into commodities. They're people, too.

People can be commodities; the difference between my example and yours is that the scientists are the ones selling their own time/labor/skills, instead of being owned by the state like slaves.

[Davin]

Victus wrote

Supply and demand curves are pretty basic components of economics.

Ah, just like all the theist retards that come here: instead of providing evidence, you pretend like you require none. You and Egor should get together.

[Stargazer]

I'm itching to answer all of Victus' points, but I just got a call and have to leave for a while. In the words of the Terminator: I'll be back.

[psychodiva]

Would love to know where psychology, criminology and neuroscience fall - I suspect somewhere in between the 'arts' and 'sciences' and i already know way way way below the estimation of vic-suss

[ubs]

West491 wrote

When did I even vaguely suggest this? This is the exact opposite of what I believe about science. I think that science is immensely creative.

My apologies if I misunderstood you, but I think you vaguely suggested it here.

West491 wrote

No.
And right now, you sound like someone who has never engaged in creative writing. As someone who has many times, I can tell you that it is not easy and it gives a sense of fufillment that solving a math problem can't give.

What other than relative creative expression could you be referring to when you say “it gives a sense of fulfillment that solving a math problem can’t give”?

[Victus]

Davin wrote

Ah, just like all the theist retards that come here: instead of providing evidence, you pretend like you require none. You and Egor should get together.

What evidence would you like? Or maybe you could just learn some basic economics on your own time.

Maybe we could formulate a bet based on predictable fluctuations in commodity prices. I'll take the position that prices are set by supply and demand, and you can take the position that they're random, or whatever you happen to believe.

[Victus]

psychodiva wrote

Would love to know where psychology, criminology and neuroscience fall - I suspect somewhere in between the 'arts' and 'sciences' and i already know way way way below the estimation of vic-suss

They're all typically considered social sciences.

[Davin]

Victus wrote

What evidence would you like?

How about evidence that supports your claims. You don't have any, so you take the same weak theistic position of trying to condescend people that question you? You just keep going back to being irrational and acting like an immature little child when you're held to the same standards you pretend to respect.

[psychodiva]

Victus wrote

They're all typically considered social sciences.

yes - funnily enough I know that- that wasn't what I was asking

[West491]

ubs wrote

What other than relative creative expression could you be referring to when you say “it gives a sense of fulfillment that solving a math problem can’t give”?

Well, it goes the other way too. Solving a math problem offers a sense of accomplishment that writing a book will never be able to give. All I'm saying is neither subject is "easy" as Victus tends to believe and they both offer some tremendous things.

[West491]

I know some engineering students who, self-admittingly, can't write a creative essay to save their lives. However, they can write technical reports all day. Smart as hell but the bastards lack a certain kind of creativity.

[Victus]

Davin wrote

How about evidence that supports your claims.

And what would constitute evidence that prices are determined by supply and demand, for you?

[Davin]

Victus wrote

And what would constitute evidence that prices are determined by supply and demand, for you?

Are you really that mentally challenged? Learn how to read.

[Stargazer]

West491 wrote

I know some engineering students who, self-admittingly, can't write a creative essay to save their lives. However, they can write technical reports all day. Smart as hell but the bastards lack a certain kind of creativity.

I'd say you're onto something here. There are many different kinds of creativity.

[Victus]

West491 wrote

All I'm saying is neither subject is "easy" as Victus tends to believe and they both offer some tremendous things.

One subject group appears to generate higher grades with less studying/effort and less connection to standardized aptitude tests than the other. Is it not fair to suspect that the former group is 'easier' than the latter?