04-27-2007, 01:17 PM
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#586
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I Live Here
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 23,211
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Quote:
Xans wrote
Quote:
HeWhoAsks wrote
That choice right there, between logic and illogic, is *not* the issue, read the above again (assuming we are all trying to be logical). Assuming that, *my point* is that you can't write off atheism as a mere *choice* (and this is not the choice to be logical or not) as you have tried to do,
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I "don't write off" atheism as a "mere" choice, I state the "mere" fact atheism is a choice. You can't be an atheist without having made countless choices.
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Bushwah! No one is born believing in any god. THey are therefore atheist without having chosen anything realted to it. Dummy.
Quote:
The fact atheists have no particular choice in particular instances isn't evidence they have no choice at all. To make that claim would be a fallacy of composition.
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when atheists claim that we are led to atheism by evidence and logic. You can disagree with our reading of the evidence and logic, but it's not a choice.
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You choose to be led by logic, you choose to be led by evidence and you choose how to read the evidence. I don't see the relevance in the fact we have no choice but to go with what we've chosen.
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I can no more choose to be led by logic than you can choose not to. Can you choose to disbelieve that you fell on your face when you fell on your face? If not, then you do not and cannot choose to be led by evidence, it is impressed on you inescapably or you are insane. Deranged dummy.
"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
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04-27-2007, 01:23 PM
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#587
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I Live Here
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 23,211
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Quote:
Xans wrote
Quote:
Victus wrote
Belief, by its very nature, is not a choice.
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Because belief is the end result of choices made. Again, the fact you've made a choice and are now are[sic] forced to go with it, is not evidence there was no choice.
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Because it is not a fact. I have made no choice to believe and I cannot make another choice to believe something different. New evidence can force me to accept the truth of something different than I did before. Just you try to believe something possible, but unvalidated, like "Jesus was married, like all normal rabbis at the time, to Mary Magdelene". Go ahead, try. Betcha can't do it no matter how hard you try.
You dummy.
"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
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04-27-2007, 01:32 PM
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#588
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I Live Here
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 23,211
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Quote:
Xans wrote
Quote:
Just Us Chickens wrote
Xans, Are you a determinist?
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I was about to say no, but I guess I am a determinist. Assuming by determinist you mean that I hold a belief that every event is causally determined by an unbroken chain of prior occurrences. This is the root reason I believe God can't know the future. God can't because the future doesn't exist until it's caused. To demand that God know the future is like demanding he know how long the easter bunnies ears are.
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You almost got it and then you dropped it again.
If every event is determined by the events preceding it, then knowing those preceding events tells you exactly what next event will occur. God, able to see with perfect clarity all of the events at the beginning, would certainly know, by playing all of those causes and their determined effects through all of time. That is why God must know the future in a deterministic universe. If He doesn't know, then either it is not deterministic or He simply has inadequate knowledge. You dummy.
"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
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04-27-2007, 01:43 PM
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#589
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,279
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Quote:
Just Us Chickens wrote
Quote:
Xans wrote
Quote:
Just Us Chickens wrote
Xans, Are you a determinist?
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I was about to say no, but I guess I am a determinist. Assuming by determinist you mean that I hold a belief that every event is causally determined by an unbroken chain of prior occurrences. This is the root reason I believe God can't know the future. God can't because the future doesn't exist until it's caused. To demand that God know the future is like demanding he know how long the easter bunnies ears are.
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But if each event is caused by the event that came before it then the out come is unavoidable. unknowable but unavoidable
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Agreed.
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04-27-2007, 01:46 PM
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#590
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Mistress Monster Mod'rator Spy
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The North Coast
Posts: 15,428
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"I do not intend to tiptoe through life only to arrive safely at death."
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
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04-27-2007, 01:48 PM
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#591
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,279
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Quote:
nkb wrote
Please enlighten me: which specific post provides scientific proof for the Christian God?
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I've stated before I cannot prove the Christian God exists, only that the universe was created. Also, I've already stated my belief that the Christian God is that creator comes first out of faith. Second would be the historical accuracy of the Bible.
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04-27-2007, 01:50 PM
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#592
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Super Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Puerto Rico
Posts: 9,775
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you can prove that it exists, because we are in it....but not that it was created....
One of the most irrational of all the conventions of modern society is the one to the effect that religious opinions should be respected....That they should have this immunity is an outrage. There is nothing in religious ideas, as a class, to lift them above other ideas. On the contrary, they are always dubious and often quite silly.
H. L. Mencken
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04-27-2007, 01:52 PM
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#593
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Stinkin' Mod
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Britland
Posts: 13,616
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Quote:
Xans wrote
I've stated before I cannot prove the Christian God exists, only that the universe was created.
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Stop the Holy See men!
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04-27-2007, 01:55 PM
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#594
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Inklandia
Posts: 3,389
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T U N A?
:d
If religion were based on facts, it would be called science, and no one would believe it. -- Stephen Colbert
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04-27-2007, 01:56 PM
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#595
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Guest
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Kate! good pic pick! I just finished making a shirt with a picture by that illustrator on it last night. I'm wearing it right now :D
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04-27-2007, 02:03 PM
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#596
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,279
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Quote:
Sternwallow wrote
Quote:
Xans wrote
Quote:
HeWhoAsks wrote
That choice right there, between logic and illogic, is *not* the issue, read the above again (assuming we are all trying to be logical). Assuming that, *my point* is that you can't write off atheism as a mere *choice* (and this is not the choice to be logical or not) as you have tried to do,
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I "don't write off" atheism as a "mere" choice, I state the "mere" fact atheism is a choice. You can't be an atheist without having made countless choices.
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Bushwah! No one is born believing in any god. THey are therefore atheist without having chosen anything realted to it. Dummy.
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No one is born believing you should wipe your ass after going #2 either. I've been refuted, you got me. Atheists are babies.
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I can no more choose to be led by logic than you can choose not to. Can you choose to disbelieve that you fell on your face when you fell on your face? If not, then you do not and cannot choose to be led by evidence, it is impressed on you inescapably or you are insane. Deranged dummy.
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Thanks for making my point for me. You "choose" to disbelieve.
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04-27-2007, 02:04 PM
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#597
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Stinkin' Mod
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Britland
Posts: 13,616
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Splendid artwork - it inspired this excellent album cover in 1975 a few years ago.
Stop the Holy See men!
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04-27-2007, 02:09 PM
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#598
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,279
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Quote:
Sternwallow wrote
New evidence can force me to accept the truth of something different than I did before.
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What is this "force" of which you write? Could this force be.... I don't know.. ummm... maybe...... a choice?
Quote:
Just you try to believe something possible, but unvalidated, like "Jesus was married, like all normal rabbis at the time, to Mary Magdelene". Go ahead, try. Betcha can't do it no matter how hard you try.
You dummy.
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The fact we're forced to make a choice isn't evidence there is no choice. The fact you've made a choice and are now stuck with it, isn't evidence you didn't make a choice.
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04-27-2007, 02:15 PM
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#599
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Guest
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Quote:
Xans wrote
Thanks for making my point for me. You "choose" to disbelieve.
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There are no choices everything is the outcome of all that came before it. You couldn’t be an Atheist any more than I could be a Christian or the other way around
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04-27-2007, 02:20 PM
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#600
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,279
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Quote:
Sternwallow wrote
Quote:
Xans wrote
Quote:
Just Us Chickens wrote
Xans, Are you a determinist?
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I was about to say no, but I guess I am a determinist. Assuming by determinist you mean that I hold a belief that every event is causally determined by an unbroken chain of prior occurrences. This is the root reason I believe God can't know the future. God can't because the future doesn't exist until it's caused. To demand that God know the future is like demanding he know how long the easter bunnies ears are.
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You almost got it and then you dropped it again.
If every event is determined by the events preceding it, then knowing those preceding events tells you exactly what next event will occur. God, able to see with perfect clarity all of the events at the beginning, would certainly know, by playing all of those causes and their determined effects through all of time. That is why God must know the future in a deterministic universe. If He doesn't know, then either it is not deterministic or He simply has inadequate knowledge. You dummy.
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The Bible makes it clear God determines the future but not exhaustively as you claim. The Bible makes it clear he's been surprised by the evil choices of his creations and that he has waited to see what his creations would do in certain situations. God has delegated a will to his creations and he hates evil. It's logical God wouldn't play out in his mind, exhaustively, every possible evil scenario his creations are capable of. The Bible doesn't describe God as an infinite scenario calculator.
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