You're not going to fall for this, are you?

[Davin]

Eternal wrote

He set up an organisation to extol his own brand of religion called the self realisation fellowship. Look them up, you might finally find somewhere you belong.

Then it could fuck off, never to return!

[Smellyoldgit]

Eternal wrote

you might finally find somewhere you belong.

[Sol]

Smellyoldgit wrote

That shed just ain't big enough to contain all the shit eddy coughs up.

[Sol]

Egor wrote

bla bla bla...
I know that from the outside, it seems that medicine is this great atheistic research laboratory where people are healed with all the confidence of science, but in truth it’s not that way...
more jibber jabber

What about from the inside then ? Strangely the exact opposite of the bullshit you just made up.
Is there no end to the stuff you will falsify and lie about, eddy?
What a huge condescending prat, to hope that people are that naive.

You really are a first class twat.

[ILOVEJESUS]

Wow, he can write all that on an atheist site.....with a straight face???? He is so stupid and beyond reason that I cannot , with any sense of humanity, insult him any further.

[West491]

Egor wrote

My Anatomy and Physiology professor was the one who said, “If you’re not a believer when you start this class; you will be when you finish.”

I see that your science Professor was as big of a twat as you are.

[Eternal]

I love the Tim Minchin beat poem "Storm" where he rants about alternative medicines, very good.

Having god as a placebo does still not make it any more likely that he exists. Whereas, i believe placebos in general have been proven to have benefits. So isn't it much more likely that people who don't take responsibility for themselves by handing it over to the big man, have a less stressful time mentally. Would you consider this a possibility?

[Irreligious]

Egor wrote

I don’t disdain anyone’s religion. Have you heard me do that? In fact, I’ve defended others religions by claiming they are worshiping the same God I am, just a different revelation of him.

You're not embracing any of the 35,000 + versions of Christianity out there, opting instead to invent your own version. Are you doing that because you don't disdain and reject what other Christians believe?

Egor wrote

Yep. In fact, I’m at a crossroads right now. I have tried in the past to be a traditional Christian, but I have failed each time. This time around, it’s as if God has tricked me back into being a Veridican. I have tried to leave it behind, but I can’t seem to do it. So, I guess it’s my purpose in life to go forward with it.

That's, um, nice, but what has this got to do with the rest of humanity? Why on earth should it concern us? I mean, it sounds like a personal crisis to me.

And the god you claim to worship "tricks" people? Doesn't sound very benevolent.

Egor wrote

I have never written down a concise and definite version of Veridicanism, except for the two tenets (God is monistic in nature, and the human purpose is to be Christ.). But where I’m at in my book right now necessitates it. I have been trying to let this cup pass from me, but it won’t go away.

Is it the "human purpose" to be Christ or is it your purpose and mission to be Christ? Based on what you've written here in this part of your post, it sounds more like the latter, as if you believe that a god has appointed you-- out of all humanity-- to save the rest of us.

Egor wrote

The crossroads is this: I believe everyone should form their own religion from reading the Gospels (that is, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and also Thomas). Everyone should walk their own path. There shouldn’t be 35,000 denominations of Christianity; there should be 6 billion denominations. But I also realize that can be like feeding an infant by setting a can of chili in front of him or her along with a can opener. So I may have to set out a system of belief whether I want to or not.

So you believe everyone should create their own religion based on the Christian gospels, but you should be in control of how they practice their religions?

This sounds like a very tall order. Do you think you're up to it?

Egor wrote

But I fully expect to be the only Veridican until the day I die. What happens with it after that or how it is forgotten, or worse corrupted, will not be my concern. Apparently, I was born to invent this religion, so I need to get about the business of it. It’s been in formation for the last 19 years. There’s nothing left to discover. It’s just time to do.

You expect to be the only Veridican-- that is, the only possessor of "truth"-- until the day you die? And this does not sound even the tiniest bit narcissistic to you? No bells or red flags going off for you with this? No concerns that maybe this is not the kind of thing you want to share with, much less, force upon other people?

Interesting.

Egor wrote

To save them from Hell, of course.

Because you believe that you, as a self-proclaimed Veridican, have that power?

Egor wrote

I don’t know what you mean by “Solid, substantial proof.” If you want to see God physically, then you have to look at his physical body, and that is the universe.

When did the universe take on male attributes, and why are we required to call the universe god? Do I get to decide that cockroaches are now angels and that oceans are tearducts? Because I can, you know. Would you respect my right to do that?

Egor wrote

If you want to connect with God spiritually, then you have to grow closer to him by living out your purpose, which is to become His consciousness within His creation. You don’t meet God; you wake up to God. If you want to feel God’s love for you, then you must be willing to be one with God.

Is it possible that you are completely unaware of how vague and incomprehensible this all is to people living outside of your brain?

Egor wrote

I wouldn’t even go there. The medical field is not dominated by atheism. Far, far from it.

The medical field is dominated by science. That is what medical professionals rely upon to care for people who require medical attention, or they would not be doing their jobs.

Egor wrote

I have never met an atheist nurse that I know of. All of them have been quite spiritually-minded. Most doctors, I’ve met, quite frankly, are Hindu. My Anatomy and Physiology professor was the one who said, “If you’re not a believer when you start this class; you will be when you finish.” Meaning that the complexity and design of the human body was enough to make anyone believe in God.[/font][/size]

But whether a nurse or physician is personally Hindu, a Wiccan, a Washfoot Baptist or a believer in sexual healing, what they all share in common is they practice medicine, which is an empirical science. They're not paid to preach to the sick nor pray over them. They're all charged with treating their patients, using the science of internal medicine or physical surgery.

Of course, if a patient asks, there's nothing preventing nurses and/or physicians from offering their patients the psychological comforts of their own specific theological perspectives. But that ain't medicine.

Egor wrote

Evidence-based care is what nurses are supposed to go by, and we do. In other words, what has been proven to work, we use. That’s why in psychiatry, we assess patients for religious beliefs, because solid religious beliefs can be an asset in their healing. Hyper-religiosity, which is a sign of delusion and psychosis, is not the same thing as true religious belief. There is a huge difference between a patient being able to focus on reading the Bible and a patient who walks around with a Bible to ward off demons.

Of course, there is no precise line of demarcation between the two. Essentially, you're talking about matters of degree. Anyway, physicians, be they practioners of internal medicine, surgeons or psychiatrists are all, primarily required to practice using evidenced-based care. If not, priest, preachers, rabbis, Imams and psychics could supplant them in the various fields of medicine.

Egor wrote

I know that from the outside, it seems that medicine is this great atheistic research laboratory where people are healed with all the confidence of science, but in truth it’s not that way.

What are atheistic research laboratories? Who toils in them, and for what purpose? What does practicing medicine have to do with an alleged God or gods, explicitly?

Egor wrote

There are medicines that work on infections, pain, tumor growth, and the positive symptoms of mental illness. There are procedures you can do to fix the body when it is broke, but people heal on their own. You stich a laceration together, and God takes it from there. You inject epinephrine and atropine and do chest compressions and ventilate a dying man, maybe you apply an electric shock to the heart, but none of that makes a person live. Most people in cardiac arrest will still die.

Is there evidence that preaching to or praying over patients in cardiac arrest yields better results?

Egor wrote

]No one would ever suggest that medicine should be scrapped and faith healing should ensue. God has given us our technological advancement.

Where is the evidence for this claim that an alleged god is responsible for technological advancements in medicine instead of the scientists who actually do the work?

Egor wrote

But there is the illusion of medical science and there is the clinical reality of what it can do. That’s why a lot of people prefer nursing over being a physician. Some of us believe that caring for a patient never fails, whereas medicine, in the long run, always fails—we all die.

Nurses are medical professionals, not nannies and maids. Just like physicians, they also employ evidence-based care to what they do. And still, despite the best of care and employing the best medical tools available, we still die, because that is what all living things must do, ultimately. We don't live in perpetuity.

Egor wrote

There are more atheists in traditional religion than anywhere else.

Where else, for instance.

Egor wrote

That’s my problem with religion. Another is that I cannot tolerate someone being a spiritual authority over me. That just ain’t gunna happen. There are too many people in church saying they believe in God but living as if He didn’t exist.

This sounds rather hypocritical coming from you.

Egor wrote

Funny you should say. I was just talking with God in my prayer journal last night and saying that Veridicanism is the only thing I can fight atheism with.

Why do you have a compulsion to fight off atheism if you have a firm conviction that a god exists? How are atheists disrupting that? By merely existing? Are they ringing your doorbell every day demanding to share their nonbelief in god with you or something?

Egor wrote

It feeds off of traditional religious notions like AIDS use the immune cells to spread its disease.

If yours is not a traditional religion and you perceive that those who do believe in a God or gods veer mostly towards attacking traditional religions, what's the problem? Are you concerned that nobody is paying attention to you? Is that your beef, ultimately?

[Irreligious]

Egor wrote

I can defend the fact that God is the monistic entity of fundamental consciousness and that the Human purpose is to be Christ.

So far, you haven't even been able to explain what this is supposed to mean to anybody outside of yourself. It sounds like pure gibberish to me. But, in the end, I don't care. So why should you care that I don't care?

Egor wrote

I can’t defend Catholic or Protestant theology. Hell, I can’t even understand how Catholicism developed from the teachings of Christ in the first place.

Nobody here has ever asked you to defend Catholicism or Protestant theologies. All we've ever done is to ask you to defend your assertions, regardless of what you base them on.

[Kinich Ahau]

Egor wrote

It kind of makes sense that God would create a personality like mine if he wanted to start a new religion. I don’t back down. I’m highly intelligent. I love to fight. I have a massive ego and need to feed it. I’ve had a lifelong two-way communication with God. I’ve studied every kind of religion there is. I have spiritual gifts that most people don’t have. I’m a writer and a damn good publisher (at least technically. Of course, I can’t sell a book worth a damn). I’m not encumbered by raising children. And I’ve been all over the world (including Scotland). With all that, I know how to care for people, and I honestly feel fulfilled in doing that line of work (being a nurse). In other words, I’m not some academic who’s always got my head down, and I’m not someone who left the Church and threw out God and Christ when I did. That’s pretty rare.

You forgot humble.

[ghoulslime]

Kinich Ahau wrote

You forgot humble.

And megalomaniacal ass crack with delusions of grandeur!

[Egor]

Stargazer wrote

Actually, Egor, this sounds a lot like Gnosticism. My background: I have been an atheist all my life (can remember not believing stuff taught at Sunday School around age 8), yet I went to a Baptist university, majoring in English. It was required to take religion courses there, and I did. I took the required Bible course and I also took comparative religions. There I learned about Gnosticism, and have done a lot of reading on that subject and many others on religion since college. I have read the Bible, Koran, Book of Mormon, Mahabarata, you name it.

You sound like a very religious person. You sound like someone with a lot of religious expertise. You sound like someone seeking the truth. I respect your atheism, Stargazer. All I ask is that you keep an open mind. I may be able to show you something in the future that will change your way of thinking. I apologize that I can’t do that now, that I don’t know how to do that now, but the subtleties of influence that cause a person to change their mind are not something we can control. In the future, I may say something in such a way that you are impressed by it and think about it.

You know, there was this guy once. I had a small New Age periodical back in 1996 and I went out with camera and tape recorder to a Wiccan meditation group (or some such thing). Anyway, I was talking with him, and my wife was talking with some others (they loved her because she’s American Indian—Cherokee. Go figure). Anyway, I was talking with this guy and he said that everything was God. I said, “So you’re God?” He had the balls to say, yes.

I said, “Well if you’re God, I’ve got some serious questions for you.”

He just looked at me straight-faced and said, “Go ahead.” And I laughed it off.

Over the course of a year or better, it ate at me. The concept of monism (because before that time Veridicanism was just the Veridical Christian Society, for the most part). But it ate at me. Eventually, I couldn’t shake the idea of monism, and then I realized that God had to be monistic. That if He created the universe, He could have only created it from Himself, that in fact there couldn’t be anything other than God—ever, not then, not now. And I became a monist—just like that guy was.

Someday I may say something in such a way that your foundation is shaken, as mine was. So stay tuned. Keep an open mind. That’s all I ask, and if you do, then I will continue to respect your atheism. But just yours! Everyone else can go to hell (heehee, pun intended).

Gnosticim, as I understand it, is where each person has to, through learning, find God for him/herself. These groups were supported in the early church, but were declared heretical later on and people were hunted and killed for it.

But the idea of finding God through individual learning, sounds much like what you are doing.

I have a lot of sympathy for the Gnostics. It’s a little known fact that the Christian church was so corrupt by the time the Bible was written that Gnostics were, as you say, hunted down and killed for their beliefs. I don’t know if Veridicanism is Gnostic or not. I have been accused of that before, but I really don’t know if I fit in that category. Gnostics were not monists, far from it in fact. And I don’t think the Gnostics believed that a human being was supposed to become Christ. Having said that, back in 2007 or 2006, I wrote a synthesis of the four Gospels and the Gospel of Thomas. I call it the Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ. I will be publishing it soon. Some would say that the Gospel of Thomas is a Gnostic text. I tend to think it’s less Gnostic than the Gospel of John, but that’s up to each individual to decide.

Nevertheless, one must approach God through their own religious means, no matter what. Even if one were to be a Veridican, they would find that in becoming Christ, which is a tenet of Veridicanism, they would have to approach God on their own.

And think about it: You see this in atheism as well. Each atheist demands proof of God, but each atheist has their own particular proof that will work for them.

Also, though, if you read enough Gnostic literature, it begins to sound kind of like Buddhism, which I think is not a religion but a philosophy.

Well, you know, they say that mysticism is pretty much the same across all religions. And a lot of Jesus’ teachings are almost Buddhist in nature. Some think he stole a lot from Buddhism, but I think it was more the influence of the Egyptian Pharaoh. Think about it, the Egyptian pharaoh was supposed to be an incarnation of God on earth; Jesus may have encountered this and came up with the idea Himself. Of course, however Jesus came to be, God was in control of it all. But the idea that man can and should be God on earth could certainly have come from either the Buddhists or the idea of the Pharaoh.

[Egor]

Stargazer wrote

By proof I mean something that shows direct evidence of God, not implied evidence, where you have to make a leap of faith to accept it. That's where any example of the Argument From Design breaks down, and you've seen Ex Atheist give numerous examples along the lines of: Look at (the human eye, a mosquito, whatever). It is very complex. Therefore (LEAP) there MUST be a God.

Ah, so you want God to rape you. Or at least rape your mind. You want him to directly prove Himself to you so you have no choice but to know He’s your master and you are his creature.

When I was nine, right about the age in which you say you became an atheist ironically, I was walking alone in a field in Escondido, California, and I looked to the sky for some reason, and I had this overwhelming sense of God. I don’t know how to explain it, but I understand now that it would have been called a religious ecstasy. And I had a miserable life at that time, but the glory and the desire I felt. It was so good; nothing has ever compared to it. Nothing at all. It’s funny, I can still remember it so clearly.

Because of that, I have followed God and sought Him and it has worked. I talk to God all the time, and He talks to me. But he never forced me to believe in him. That experience is evidence of nothing. If we were forced to know He exists, then we would become his automatons. And that is not what He’s looking for. Once you know God exists, you can’t unknow it. It’s like seeing your naked grandmother; you just can’t escape the knowledge.

Maybe it’s God’s sense of humor: Because we believe first and then we get the proof. I realize Moses got a burning bush, and the Apostles got the miracles of Jesus, but they all believed in God already. God could rape our minds. But a rapist never gets a lover does he? He only gets an object.

This just shows that medicine in some ways is still stuck in the last century. Anyone with a strong enough positive attitude has a better chance of healing. This has been in many articles I had read lately. But can the person (I HATE the term patient) do this with the strength of their own mind, or do they need a crutch (God) to accomplish it? I would say mental resiliency is to be credited to the individual person, not to some invisible being. Just as Tim Tebow is responsible for winning his own football games, not God, even though he would probably say so.

So, even miracles won’t convince you? Tim Tebow, if he’s winning, and if he’s praying to win, isn’t that the proof you all are seeking? Of course not. Miracles prove nothing. They never have. That’s why the miracles of Jesus also have symbolic meaning, because they only work for those who physically see them, and then not for most of them either. Miracles are very weak proof. Every psychotic patient I have (sorry, but patient is the appropriate term) believes in magic. Every one of them sees things that aren’t there. Miracles are useless proof. I could tell you about the miracles in my life, but why bother?

So, miracles won’t convince you; pictures won’t convince you. All your religious studies have not convinced you. Another nurse at work said she was praying about something and she asked for a sign. Then she described a sign that came almost immediately after. Unfortunately I tend to dump everything from work when I get home so I don’t remember the particulars, but I remember saying, OMG that’s amazing! And she was like, “But I’m not quite sure…”

That’s just how people are.

No defending necessary. Just give us concrete proof (defined above) of God.

That ain’t ever going to happen. But don’t act so indignant. You don’t have concrete proof of anything, not really. We believe everything we think we know.

And not that you need it, but may I offer one little bit of advice? Stop identifying with other atheists. You said, “Just give us proof…” There’s nothing to be had by being part of a “group.” Not when it comes to whether or not God exists.

[Egor]

Eternal wrote

Anyways, by any chance have you read the second coming of christ by Paramahansa Yogananda. If not then i suggest you read it, because everything you say could be coming from his divine lips (except for the bit about the beer and superbowl).

No, I haven’t and I’m not going to because the book is too expensive. It’s not that I couldn’t pay the money, but there’s no reason for it to cost so much and not be on Kindle. I’ve been ripped off long enough by religious preachers. I don’t need another rip off. I’m not a Hindu, I don’t care what Hindu gurus say. I’m a Veridican (which is much more like a Christian), and if we happen to agree with one another, great! Truth is truth. More power to the divine Paramahansa. Let him take care of India, and I’ll concentrate on the Western World.
Why don’t you read it? It might do you some good.

I think you may find your book has already been written, maybe not, I wouldn't presume to know the contents of your book, but if it resembles your dribblings here then there is a good chance. Paramahansa Yogananda was a hindu who was a big shouter about jeebus, and thought that jesus and krishna were watching over us hand in hand, and that jesus was essentially a yogi that we should all try to emulate.

Sounds good to me. You should follow him.

He set up an organisation to extol his own brand of religion called the self realisation fellowship. Look them up, you might finally find somewhere you belong.

But I have God. I talk to God and He talks to me. Why would I want to belong anywhere? You know, Jesus said that he was never alone because the Father was always with him. That’s how I feel. I don’t need to belong to a group. I don’t derive support from a church. I have God, so I’m never alone.

West491 wrote

I see that your science Professor was as big of a twat as you are.

Oh, I see. Anyone, no matter what their credentials (she had a Ph.D. in Biology), no matter how many years of experience they have (she was an old lady), no matter what they’ve seen of the world and of science and medicine and all the atheists they’ve known and all the religious people they’ve known, no matter how many nurses and pre-med students they’ve trained. If they believe only an intelligent creative force could have designed the human body, they are a twat—just like me.

Well, aren’t you a brilliant piece of work.

Kinich Ahau wrote

You forgot humble.

You don’t understand what humility is. You can’t be humble unless you come from power first. Weak people can’t be humble, only servile.

[Irreligious]

Egor wrote

You sound like a very religious person. You sound like someone with a lot of religious expertise. You sound like someone seeking the truth. I respect your atheism, Stargazer.

You show respect for Stargazer's skepticism by telling her she sounds like a very religious person?

Egor wrote

All I ask is that you keep an open mind.

Why? Is your mind open to the fact that you might be utterly wrong in terms of what you're promoting here?

Egor wrote

I may be able to show you something in the future that will change your way of thinking.

Why do you wish to change Stargazer's mind instead of presenting her with the evidence she asked for?

Egor wrote

I apologize that I can’t do that now, that I don’t know how to do that now, but the subtleties of influence that cause a person to change their mind are not something we can control. In the future, I may say something in such a way that you are impressed by it and think about it.

Again, why pursue this tack instead of just presenting Stargazer with demonstrable evidence for your assertions? It sounds like you're more interested in gaining acolytes than pursuing "the truth."

Egor wrote

You know, there was this guy once. I had a small New Age periodical back in 1996 and I went out with camera and tape recorder to a Wiccan meditation group (or some such thing). Anyway, I was talking with him, and my wife was talking with some others (they loved her because she’s American Indian—Cherokee. Go figure). Anyway, I was talking with this guy and he said that everything was God. I said, “So you’re God?” He had the balls to say, yes.

I said, “Well if you’re God, I’ve got some serious questions for you.”

He just looked at me straight-faced and said, “Go ahead.” And I laughed it off.

Over the course of a year or better, it ate at me. The concept of monism (because before that time Veridicanism was just the Veridical Christian Society, for the most part). But it ate at me. Eventually, I couldn’t shake the idea of monism, and then I realized that God had to be monistic. That if He created the universe, He could have only created it from Himself, that in fact there couldn’t be anything other than God—ever, not then, not now. And I became a monist—just like that guy was.

It's puzzling why you think anybody would find this story compelling. It's all about what impresses you. It doesn't contain any information about what a god is supposed to be or what it means to assert that everything in existence is god. In fact, it mostly serves to make the word god even more vague and meaningless.

Egor wrote

Someday I may say something in such a way that your foundation is shaken, as mine was. So stay tuned. Keep an open mind. That’s all I ask, and if you do, then I will continue to respect your atheism. But just yours! Everyone else can go to hell (heehee, pun intended).

You honestly don't have a clue how patronizing and insulting this is, do you?

Egor wrote

I have a lot of sympathy for the Gnostics. It’s a little known fact that the Christian church was so corrupt by the time the Bible was written that Gnostics were, as you say, hunted down and killed for their beliefs. I don’t know if Veridicanism is Gnostic or not. I have been accused of that before, but I really don’t know if I fit in that category...

Nevertheless, one must approach God through their own religious means, no matter what. Even if one were to be a Veridican, they would find that in becoming Christ, which is a tenet of Veridicanism, they would have to approach God on their own.

Why on earth are you telling an atheist that they must approach god at all? What is wrong with you? Why do you even presume to think that atheists appreciate being engaged in this way?

Egor wrote

And think about it: You see this in atheism as well. Each atheist demands proof of God, but each atheist has their own particular proof that will work for them.

For the most part, all the atheists here have asked is that you provide evidence for your claims. You were asked repeatedly what a god is and how it creates things. Instead of answering the question, you've taken the opportunity to be self-indulgent, sharing with Stargazer what impresses you about your own beliefs while showing no interest, whatsoever, in why anybody would be skeptical about god claims.