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Old 02-01-2005, 08:59 AM   #1
"FKA" Paradox
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“As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.” Article 11, Treaty of Tripoli, signed by President John Adams"

What do you guys think/know?
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Old 02-01-2005, 09:19 AM   #2
Erik
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Definitely non-Christian premises.

Where in Christianity do you find a division of legislative, executive and judicial functions for the purpose of preventing one from holding too much power? In Christianity, the executive is The Grand Poobah, no questions asked.

In which Christian nation was democracy forged? Oops, that's right; it wasn't. It was primarily in a pagan nation, to which the founders looked for guiding principles.

It is a fundamental Christian premise that all other religions are wrong. Indeed, it is the First Commandment. That doesn't really jibe very well with the First Amendment to the Constitution.

Thomas Jefferson made it quite clear in correspondence with John Adams, Thomas Cooper and John Cartwright that Jefferson understood American common law, which was the predominant legal system in the nation for many years, was not based on Biblical foundations but on centuries of developed legal practice and experience in England.
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Old 02-01-2005, 02:34 PM   #3
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Quote:
"FKA" Paradox wrote
“As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.” Article 11, Treaty of Tripoli, signed by President John Adams"

What do you guys think/know?
Here are some notable facts from the writings of Thomas Jefferson:

Referring to his interpretation of the First Amendment, "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State." (January 1, 1802, Letter to Danbury Baptist Association)
In his autobiography, referencing the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom, he wrote, “Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."


I'd say they were trying to avoid being cast as a theocracy. Thoughts?

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"Science and Mother Nature are in a marriage where Science is always surprised to come home and find Mother Nature blowing the neighbor." - Justin's Dad
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Old 02-01-2005, 06:14 PM   #4
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I have no doubt that this was meant to be a secular country, but with the re-election of Bush I am counting the days when prayer in schools will be the norm. Aside from the fact that the prdominant religion in this country is Christianity, remember that non-christian presidants have a harder time getting elected.
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Old 02-01-2005, 06:17 PM   #5
Sir Sin-O-Lot
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I find this country to have been founded on a secular basis.Bush is a puppet of the Coroprations and the Christian-right. He is probably the most religious president we've had since the Cold War.
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Old 02-01-2005, 07:58 PM   #6
The Buzz
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Tenspace wrote
I'd say they were trying to avoid being cast as a theocracy. Thoughts?
I agree with this 100%. The founders knew there could never be a free country if the church and state were not seperated.

However, that does not change the fact that many of the framers of the Constitution were Christians, and that many of the ideals and laws therein stemmed directly from the Christian view of right and wrong. It is my firm belief that this cannot be ignored, but I do not think it would be beneficial for anyone to have any one religion officially supported by the government.

And I realize that the comment about prayer in Schools was an exaggeration, but that could never happen in our society today. Even if Bush pushed for it, the other branches of government wouldn't go for it.
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Old 02-02-2005, 01:31 AM   #7
"FKA" Paradox
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Can anyone define for me what is meant by "Secular" when it is applied to the US government?
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Old 02-02-2005, 02:06 AM   #8
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My definition:

Secular: Not bound by monastic restrictions, especially not belonging to a religious order. Used of the clergy.

Meaning that the Government can make no law that favours or restricts any belief system. You can not teach God in school, you can only go with science.
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Old 02-09-2005, 06:14 PM   #9
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Here is a good article:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...in671823.shtml
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Old 02-09-2005, 07:34 PM   #10
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The United States was founded on the premise of tolerance and freedom for everyone (except slaves at the time)...but that's another story. They had seen what could come from a government in bed with the church and did not want a repeat performance. That would explain to an extent the statement in the Treaty of Tripoli. Also, Jefferson's advocation of the separation of church and state. It's not to say that there should be only secularism but in matters of government no one group should be favored over the other, to declare the US a Christian state would do such.
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Old 03-08-2005, 07:59 PM   #11
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Quote:
In which Christian nation was democracy forged?
To be fair we are not a democratic state, we are a democratic republic there is a big difference.

I honestly dont think we were founded on Christian ideals, while many of the founding fathers were Christian, the majority of the most notable founders seem to have been more Deistic than anything else. But it doesnt matter what the faith of the founding fathers truely was because they laid out in the constitution and bill of rights that our country is about giving everyone rights and that there would be no national religion. They agreed upon the country not being a Christian society and in the case of Madison and Jefferson imparticular they took great pride in religious freedom as so noted in the Virginia Statutes of Religious freedom and numerous other writings they worked on.
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Old 03-30-2005, 08:50 AM   #12
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I know there is a separate thread on this subject, but can anyone instruct me how this secular democratic republic endorsed a pledge of allegiance that presumes, no, requires, everyone to be "one Nation under God". Also, is this accepted by Moslems, Christians, Jews, Hindus, etc, as being under a different god, but at least under a god, or do the non christians believers assume it refers to the christian god?

It strikes me that the rights of aethiests are being trampled everyday.

I quote: "I Pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
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Old 03-30-2005, 09:27 AM   #13
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Since the time of Andrew Jackson this country has increasingly become a plutocracy and no longer a democracy. The meek masses cling to religion because it is their hope for a better future. The elite use this belief to present commonality, there for gaining more acceptance even though their socio-economic platforms have nothing in common with the religious. Perfect example is the republican party. There isn't a Christian in the world who can make the case that Christ would support jungle capitalism. Yet the religious right votes republican in droves. Why? Because the right utilizes religious morality to lull them over.

Anyhow, this is exactly what happened with the pledge. Under God was inserted in 1954. America coporations was in competition with Russia for economic world super power status. Feed it to the American masses that the communists are atheistic and we must unite against them with the guise of religious fervor. Tell the poor it is for religion and they'll get behind any cause, sadly enough.

Its no different today. We are telling the religious right they should be anti-abortion (even though you can make a pro-choice case using the bible which is far more powerful then a pro-life one). Why do this? Well, the corporations need a working poor to pay slave wages so they can secure their profits. That's why the same people who preach pro-life sentiments are the same ones who utilize birth control so flagrantly. You don't see the rich having numerous teen pregnancies. But we do find countless shipments of birth control pills to nunneries for the sake of keeping them from getting knocked up by the priests. The pill was invented by a Catholic and his funding came from the church!

This is an old game... Take a look at how the Catholic church funded the nazi war machine and made profits off of the Jewish slave labor... Old hat, religion works with politics to keep the people from revolt.

Oh man, the fundies and conservative atheists are going to scream at me for this one LMAO
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Old 03-30-2005, 09:36 AM   #14
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No savior from on high delivers...
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Old 03-30-2005, 09:37 AM   #15
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Not even if I included a SASE? :(

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