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Old 05-05-2006, 04:13 PM   #1
Nullifidian
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Here's an argument I thought of (don't know if anyone else has, but probably) that proves one of four things:

either God is not omnipresent, or
evil can exist in God's presence, or
evil does not exist,
or God does not exist.

1. God exists.
2. God is omnipresent.
3. Evil cannot exist in the presence of God.
4. Evil exists.

Therefore,

At least one of the above four propositions cannot be true.

We experience evil as suffering and pain, so 4 is true. Either 1, 2, or 3 is untrue.

If evil exists, and God exists, then either 2 cannot be true, or 3 cannot be true.

If 1 and 2 are true, then, given the fact of the existence of evil, then 3 cannot be true, and evil can exist in God's presence.
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Old 05-05-2006, 07:31 PM   #2
evident_enigma
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I like your quote.

I especially like this one:

Is it ok to pray in public?
"Mt 6:5-6
Quote:
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily, I say unto you, They have their reward.
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."


Very funny, given what evangelists and fundies of various sorts want to do to our schools in the US.

E_E
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Old 05-06-2006, 12:59 AM   #3
psyadam
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Quote:
Nullifidian wrote
either God is not omnipresent, or
evil can exist in God's presence, or
evil does not exist,
or God does not exist.

1. God exists.
2. God is omnipresent.
3. Evil cannot exist in the presence of God.
4. Evil exists.

Therefore,

At least one of the above four propositions cannot be true.
The proposition that is not true is 3)

Theists readily admit that God allows evil. Depending on who you ask you will get a different answer, but I think the argument with the most force is also the most perplexing one, because it makes sense, but at the same time it doesn't (if that makes any sense)

the argument being, that there can't be good without evil; there cannot be happiness without suffering.

I think that this argument is valid, but at the same time it does not make evil=good, it does not make true=false.

Its a matter of how you define perfect. Indeed, it is questionable if saying that any entity including God could be morally perfect.

In other words, this argument is the problem of evil disguised as something that would contradict omnipresence. The argument that there cannot be good without evil is not really the argument that most theists will make. They will probably say that God allows evil for greater good. Another thing they might say is "God doesn't cause evil, Satan does". I always have to chuckle when I think of little devils like the one on my avatar running around. I guess that's not really an argument for why doesn't God stop satan from being evil blah blah blah
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Old 05-06-2006, 01:03 AM   #4
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Is it possible for an anode to exist but not a cathode?

(well, yes, but only if both positive and negative charge exist)

You can always turn tricks for a few extra bucks. If looks are an issue, there's the glory hole option, but don't expect more than ... tips.
~ Philiboid Studge
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Old 05-06-2006, 01:33 PM   #5
Nullifidian
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psyadam wrote
The proposition that is not true is 3)
Yeah, I realized this must be the case, at least biblically. I also went over to yahoo!Answers and asked them, and some said evil couldn't exist in God's presence, and others said it could, with biblical references. So the whole argument has to be scrapped, I guess.
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Old 05-09-2006, 06:27 AM   #6
Rhinoqulous
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Quote:
Nullifidian wrote
Yeah, I realized this must be the case, at least biblically. I also went over to yahoo!Answers and askd them, and some said evil couldn't exist in God's presence, and others said it could, with biblical references.so the whole argument has to be scraooed, I guess.
:lol::lol::lol:

I'm sorry, I'm not laughing at you, it's just that you have the entire internet at your fingertips, and you choose yahoo! as a source of philosophical knowledge. If you really did come up with this on your own, I'm impressed. What you've stumbled across is known as the Problem of Evil. You can read about it at wikipedia here (but remember, wiki is not a scholarly resource). You can read a more in-depth analysis of it here (the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy is a scholarly resource). You can also see what other forum posters have to say on the subject in our own Problem of Evil thread.

Wait just a minute-You expect me to believe-That all this misbehaving-Grew from one enchanted tree? And helpless to fight it-We should all be satisfied-With this magical explanation-For why the living die-And why it's hard to be a decent human being - David Bazan
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Old 05-09-2006, 06:41 AM   #7
Mog
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And then there is the DIY-diety here:

http://www.philosophersnet.com/games/whatisgod.htm

"It's puzzling that Eden is synonymous with paradise when, if you think about it at all, it's more like a maximum-security prison with twenty-four hour surveillance." -Ann Druyan
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Old 05-09-2006, 04:51 PM   #8
Nullifidian
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Rhinoqulous wrote
Quote:
Nullifidian wrote
Yeah, I realized this must be the case, at least biblically. I also went over to yahoo!Answers and askd them, and some said evil couldn't exist in God's presence, and others said it could, with biblical references.so the whole argument has to be scraooed, I guess.
:lol::lol::lol:

I'm sorry, I'm not laughing at you, it's just that you have the entire internet at your fingertips, and you choose yahoo! as a source of philosophical knowledge. If you really did come up with this on your own, I'm impressed. What you've stumbled across is known as the Problem of Evil. You can read about it at wikipedia here (but remember, wiki is not a scholarly resource). You can read a more in-depth analysis of it here (the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy is a scholarly resource). You can also see what other forum posters have to say on the subject in our own Problem of Evil thread.
Oh, I know all about the problem of evil, and I wasn't asking those yahoos at Yahhoo for my own edification. I was trying to get the Christians there to think a bit about their religion. I don't think it worked.
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Old 05-09-2006, 05:44 PM   #9
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1. God exists
2. God is all loving
3. Giving eternal torture is not a quality of an all loving god
4. Christians believe in eternal torture

Therefor Hell is not real, god is not all loving, or god is simply not real. What is so hard about this that christians can't grasp? But then again, the good lord works in mysterious ways and maybe eternal damnation is a show of love that us mere humans can't comprehend. Yeah. Whatever.
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Old 05-13-2006, 01:02 AM   #10
veritas
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ArchyDeluxe wrote
1. God exists
2. God is all loving
3. Giving eternal torture is not a quality of an all loving god
4. Christians believe in eternal torture

Therefor Hell is not real, god is not all loving, or god is simply not real. What is so hard about this that christians can't grasp? But then again, the good lord works in mysterious ways and maybe eternal damnation is a show of love that us mere humans can't comprehend. Yeah. Whatever.
If God is love, peace, joy and fulfillment of the heart, then when people reject Him they simply choose the opposite of God "unrest, sadness, despair and emptiness etc). Hell is simply choosing an eternity without God's presence.

And good can exist along with the possibility of evil. Evil doesn’t have to exist(Evil being agianst God's will since God is good). And since the next question is going to be why does God let bad things happen if He's all powerful and the answer would be that if God stopped all bad from happening then we wouldn't have true choice. If we choose it. Thats what we get. so there's your proof of free will: bad things happen. And they happen because humans are selfish and don't love God constantly and don't love their neighbor constantly. Therefore Jesus.
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Old 05-13-2006, 05:01 AM   #11
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So you're saying, like many have before you, that free will exists so that we can love god on our own, right? So if people can love god without his interfering, there's nothing to stop them loving each other, right? But wait, isn't that in contradiction with that first bit? And, since humans have free will and can hence love each other without god, why would the absence of god be so bad? It seems pretty good to me. And

This is, of course, ignoring the bad things that happen completely independently of any human cause. Earthquakes. Bear maulings. Meteorites. Cancer. All of which would indicate a total wanker of a god. But that's been covered a million times before. And that, if rejecting god means rejecting love, peace, joy and fulfilment of the heart, then all the muslims, wiccans, satanists, hindus, buddhists, zoroastrians, pagans, native Americans, ancient Egyptians and pastafarians must be really miserable bastards.

How can any intelligent person possibly make any coherent, let alone pleasing* vorldwiew based on this crap?

*(as in, pleasing enough to deliriously dribble down your chest as you inform people in the high street who don't care of how awesome it is to wank god's ego for all of time)
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Old 05-13-2006, 08:44 AM   #12
veritas
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Facehammer wrote
This is, of course, ignoring the bad things that happen completely independently of any human cause. Earthquakes. Bear maulings. Meteorites. Cancer. All of which would indicate a total wanker of a god. But that's been covered a million times before. And that, if rejecting god means rejecting love, peace, joy and fulfilment of the heart, then all the muslims, wiccans, satanists, hindus, buddhists, zoroastrians, pagans, native Americans, ancient Egyptians and pastafarians must be really miserable bastards.

How can any intelligent person possibly make any coherent, let alone pleasing* vorldwiew based on this crap?

*(as in, pleasing enough to deliriously dribble down your chest as you inform people in the high street who don't care of how awesome it is to wank god's ego for all of time)
The question isnt how God is going to deal with everybody else. He knows their hearts, He knows what they have pursued in life and He is going to judge them fairly. The important thing is that YOU know the gospel and you have straight up rejected God's mercy and love for you. Quit guessing about other people's situation and take a look at your own.
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Old 05-13-2006, 09:25 AM   #13
Demigod79
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Quote:
veritas wrote
If God is love, peace, joy and fulfillment of the heart, then when people reject Him they simply choose the opposite of God "unrest, sadness, despair and emptiness etc). Hell is simply choosing an eternity without God's presence.
Well, if God is all-powerful then there can be nothing that is opposite to god. I think many people think of Satan as opposed to God but that's not true. He is actually God's servant who plays the role of the tempter and God constantly uses him to tempt people (Adam, Job, Jesus, etc.). When you have a being who is all-powerful and all-knowing then nothing can be opposed to that being.

Quote:
veritas wrote
And good can exist along with the possibility of evil. Evil doesn’t have to exist(Evil being agianst God's will since God is good). And since the next question is going to be why does God let bad things happen if He's all powerful and the answer would be that if God stopped all bad from happening then we wouldn't have true choice. If we choose it. Thats what we get. so there's your proof of free will: bad things happen. And they happen because humans are selfish and don't love God constantly and don't love their neighbor constantly. Therefore Jesus.
There is no such thing as free will. Any and every decision we make is influenced by something and there is only one choice we will ever make at any time. If anything, free will is simply the ability to make choices (which means that animals and computer programs have free will as well). As for free will being a justification for evil that also doesn't hold up. If free will is the source of evil, and if God gave humans free will then God gave humans evil. Since evil cannot come from something that is perfectly good it then follows that God is evil (as well as good, if you like). Furthermore, if God gave humans free will then he must have known that it would lead to evil. Since he did it anyways it means that God accepted the risks and is willing to take the responsibility for it. If you give a person a gun then you have to accept the risk that comes with it, and if someone gets hurt because of that decision then you have to take responsibility for it. The bottom line is that God allows evil to exist and if God is perfect then it cannot be opposite to his plan. Therefore, evil is part of God's plan.

Quote:
veritas wrote
The question isnt how God is going to deal with everybody else. He knows their hearts, He knows what they have pursued in life and He is going to judge them fairly. The important thing is that YOU know the gospel and you have straight up rejected God's mercy and love for you. Quit guessing about other people's situation and take a look at your own.
It also says in the bible that God influences people's minds and makes them do things (Pharaoh). He also tests and tempts people because he wants to know their hearts (Abraham, Job). If you actually read the bible correctly then you'll see that God is actually not all-powerful, nor all-knowing. There are several times in the bible where he regrets his decisions (king Saul, Noah's flood) and also cannot do things (Judges 1:19). He is also not perfect as he gets jealous, angry, and is vindictive. He strikes people down who simply look at him or speak his name in a bad way. All this suggests a being who has major ego problems and is hugely insecure about himself. Not a being worth worshipping in my opinion, even if we were real.

And it's impossible for atheists to reject God, because atheists don't believe in God. You cannot reject what you do not believe in (it's like rejecting Santa Claus or unicorns). As for God's love and mercy, the only thing I see about God is hate and vengeance. He is a cruel dictator who rules his people by force and demands worship. He is also utterly incapable of forgiving people (he always needs a sacrifice or some kind, whether it be animals or his own son) and punishes people down to the third and fourth generation. Honestly, I cannot think of a being more evil than the Hebrew God.

Religion - it gives people hope in a world torn apart by religion.
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Old 05-13-2006, 09:33 AM   #14
calpurnpiso
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Quote:
veritas wrote
Quote:
Facehammer wrote
This is, of course, ignoring the bad things that happen completely independently of any human cause. Earthquakes. Bear maulings. Meteorites. Cancer. All of which would indicate a total wanker of a god. But that's been covered a million times before. And that, if rejecting god means rejecting love, peace, joy and fulfilment of the heart, then all the muslims, wiccans, satanists, hindus, buddhists, zoroastrians, pagans, native Americans, ancient Egyptians and pastafarians must be really miserable bastards.

How can any intelligent person possibly make any coherent, let alone pleasing* vorldwiew based on this crap?

*(as in, pleasing enough to deliriously dribble down your chest as you inform people in the high street who don't care of how awesome it is to wank god's ego for all of time)
The question isnt how God is going to deal with everybody else. He knows their hearts, He knows what they have pursued in life and He is going to judge them fairly. The important thing is that YOU know the gospel and you have straight up rejected God's mercy and love for you. Quit guessing about other people's situation and take a look at your own.
Did you bump your head? :lol:..you MUST be talking about OSIRIS!...he is the ONLY true god that KNOWS anyone's heart and weighs this repository of TRUTH against a feather. In your case your heart is lighter than the feather ( representing Ma'at or the order of how things should be) which means your soul will be devoured by Ammit.!!
Remember this true religion is OLDER than the Christian mythos and lasted 3000 years!! More that Christianit ever will. Here LEARN:

http://www.crystalinks.com/egyptafterlife.html

So, REPENT, accept Osiris the god of light and truth as you SAVIOUR. He is the ONLY one that can bestow mercy and he loves you. Bow and kneel to Osiris thy god. Remember Jesus Christ used to kiss his ass before the God granting him the form of the Holy Spirit ( HORUS the bird) allowed him to impregnate his own mother so he could encarnate....or would you rather take my JET and see how infected with Christ-psychosis you truly are?..:lol:

The Egyptian Book of the Dead is OLDER than the Babble and clearly shows WHERE the babble copy its fairy tales from!
The gospel writers are ancient PLAGIARISTS. Remember unlike you I KNOW where all of those myths originated from. I, unlike you, can BACK UP my claims with EVIDENCE.
Please land.....:lol::lol:

I am the way the truth and the life said Osiris millennia before Jesus did!...read the Book of the Dead, it is ALL there!...:lol:

Christians and other folks infected with delusional beliefs think and reason like schizophrenics or temporal lobe epileptics. Their morality is dictated by an invisible friend called Jesus.
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Old 05-13-2006, 09:44 AM   #15
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As well as what they said, I've taken a look at my own situation. I can wholeheartedly say that I am quite without god's love and mercy, and am emphatically not lacking in "love, peace, joy and fulfillment of the heart." Even if I was, how will the love and mercy of a big magic man in the sky who throws his toys out of the pram at the slightest (often imagined) provocation provide me with these things? Stop talking shit and take a look at your own situation.
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